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Re: Python is going to be hard

References (9 earlier) <54086b15$0$29977$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.13770.1409839706.18130.python-list@python.org> <24e13972-bda0-48fb-bc70-81861ae43eff@googlegroups.com> <mailman.13780.1409884245.18130.python-list@python.org> <1e22e301-7e16-4168-9f04-d994c1fb53bf@googlegroups.com>
Date 2014-09-05 13:08 +1000
Subject Re: Python is going to be hard
From Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.13782.1409886532.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, September 5, 2014 8:01:00 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> That's one particular example that's from Unix. I've seen (and
>> written) Windows GUI programs that use consoles, too. And OS/2 ones.
>> Can't speak for Mac OS Classic as I've never used it, but I'd be
>> surprised if it's not possible.
>
>> So I still stand by my statement that console output is a fundamental,
>> and it's not a bad thing to teach it.
>
> If what is fundamental is what should be taught (first) then we should
> start with machine language because everything bottoms out into
> that. Yes?

No, that's not what fundamental means. And if you try to say "teach
the lowest abstraction first", then you have to teach electrical
engineering... oh wait, that's just an abstraction over physics...
which is an abstraction over mathematics... which gets us right back
to the top of the stack.

The fundamental is the thing that's most basic in *usage*, not
implementation. Console output on a modern GUI system ends up becoming
GUI display, so if you go by the "most concrete wins" then you should
start by teaching a GUI. But the console has been implemented for you,
and in usage, it's the simplest and most basic form of output
available. It's also the most cross-platform - there's no form of
output more available than stdout.

> Likewise here. In C we have no choice but to produce standalone
> executables.

Technically wrong, I've seen interactive C interpreters :) Language
doesn't mandate usage structure.

> Imposing the same impoverishment onto a beginner by
> teaching script-writing before the REPL is a miserable choice.

Personally, I'd teach both very early. Whether you teach scripts first
or REPL first doesn't make much difference - just teach both. I'm not
sure what this has to do with print, though, nor how you propose to
make useful programs without side effects.

ChrisA

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Thread

Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:10 -0400
  Re: Python is going to be hard John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2014-09-03 18:17 +0000
    Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:52 -0400
      Re: Python is going to be hard mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2014-09-03 22:37 +0100
  Re: Python is going to be hard Rock Neurotiko <miguelglafuente@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 20:16 +0200
  Re: Python is going to be hard Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2014-09-03 11:19 -0700
    Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:50 -0400
  Re: Python is going to be hard MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-09-03 19:24 +0100
  Re: Python is going to be hard Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2014-09-03 13:28 -0500
    Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:52 -0400
  Re: Python is going to be hard Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-09-03 11:33 -0700
    Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:41 -0400
      Re: Python is going to be hard Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-09-03 12:49 -0700
  Re: Python is going to be hard Juan Christian <juan0christian@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 15:44 -0300
    Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:56 -0400
  Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:49 -0400
    Re: Python is going to be hard Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-09-03 11:55 -0700
      Re: Python is going to be hard Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2014-09-03 12:01 -0700
    Re: Python is going to be hard Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 13:11 -0600
      Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 15:22 -0400
    Re: Python is going to be hard Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-09-04 12:11 +1000
  Re: Python is going to be hard Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 20:55 +0000
  Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 18:48 -0700
    Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 11:56 +1000
      Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 19:10 -0700
        Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 12:25 +1000
          Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 19:33 -0700
            Re: Python is going to be hard alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-09-04 10:29 +0000
              Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 06:08 -0700
          Re: Python is going to be hard Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-09-04 23:25 +1000
            Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 23:55 +1000
      Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 20:22 -0700
        Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 13:49 +1000
          Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 21:11 -0700
            Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 15:02 +1000
              Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 23:23 -0700
                Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 16:39 +1000
                Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 06:15 -0700
                Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 23:30 +1000
                Re: Python is going to be hard Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-09-04 23:37 +1000
                Re: Python is going to be hard Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-09-04 15:04 +0100
                Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-05 00:08 +1000
                Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 19:24 -0700
                Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-05 12:30 +1000
                Re: Python is going to be hard Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-09-04 22:51 -0400
                Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 19:56 -0700
                Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-05 13:08 +1000
        Re: Python is going to be hard Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-09-03 21:06 -0700
          Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 21:15 -0700

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