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Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...

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Subject Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...
From Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org>
To python-list@python.org
Date Wed, 20 Jul 2011 07:04:25 -0400
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On Tue, 2011-07-19 at 19:12 -0700, sturlamolden wrote:
> What is wrong with them
> 1. Designed for other languages, particularly C++, tcl and Java.
> 2. Bloatware. Qt and wxWidgets are C++ application frameworks. (Python
> has a standard library!)

I've no idea what this means.  I happily use pygtk.

As for "application frameworks" maybe you are referring to their having
their own event-loop, etc...  They don't have any choice.  A UI toolkit
has to have an event-loop and related pluming.

Gtk builds on top of glib; which has its own event-loop etc... This
makes perfect sense to me.

> 3. Unpythonic memory management: Python references to deleted C++
> objects (PyQt). Manual dialog destruction (wxPython). Parent-child
> ownership might be smart in C++, but in Python we have a garbage
> collector.

Widget registration / hierarchy != memory management.

> 4. They might look bad (Tkinter, Swing with Jython).

Sorry, I think Gtk apps are very nice looking.

> 5. All projects to write a Python GUI toolkit die before they are
> finished. (General lack of interest, bindings for Qt or wxWidgets
> bloatware are mature, momentum for web development etc.)

PyGTK just released version 3 with GObject introspection.  etk.docking
went beta a few months ago [a pygtk docking solution].  All seems pretty
alive to me.  And the developers respond to questions.

> How I would prefer the GUI library to be, if based on "native"
> widgets
> 1. Lean and mean -- do nothing but GUI. No database API, networking
> API, threading API, etc.

Sounds like PyGtk to me.  All that other stuff and you are on your own.

Although I'd like to have data-model binding.

> 2. Do as much processing in Python as possible. No more native code
> (C, C++, Cython) than needed.

Unreasonable.

> 3. Instances of extension types can clean themselves up on
> deallocation. No parent-child ownership model to mess things up. No
> manual clean-up. Python does all the reference counting we need.

NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.  UI's don't work that way.  They are inherently
hierarchical.  Just get over it.

> 4. No artist framework. Use OpenGL, Cairo, AGG or whatever else is
> suitable

Gtk supports multiple canvas modes.

> 5. No particular GUI thread synchronization is needed  -- Python has a
> GIL.

Wrong.

> 6. Expose the event loop to Python.

It is.

> 8. Written for Python in Python -- not bindings for a C++ or tcl
> toolkit.

Why.  Pointless. That is just re-implementation.

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Thread

I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-19 19:12 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-07-19 22:34 -0400
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... lkcl <luke.leighton@gmail.com> - 2011-07-24 12:30 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-19 21:34 -0500
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-22 12:34 +1200
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-22 03:30 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-07-24 10:02 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-25 11:59 +1200
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-07-25 01:37 +0000
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2011-07-19 22:44 -0400
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 06:05 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 20:20 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2011-07-21 10:52 -0400
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-22 03:38 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-20 14:28 +1000
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2011-07-20 09:20 +0200
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-20 17:28 +1000
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 02:51 -0500
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-20 18:25 +1000
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 09:39 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 10:32 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 13:58 -0700
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 15:13 -0700
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 15:52 -0700
            Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 16:02 -0700
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Corey Richardson <kb1pkl@aim.com> - 2011-07-20 18:19 -0400
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 15:41 -0700
        Tkinter in Python has native widgets (was: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-07-21 11:00 +1000
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 01:02 -0600
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Thomas Jollans <t@jollybox.de> - 2011-07-20 11:59 +0200
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Johann Hibschman <jhibschman+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 07:16 -0500
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 06:47 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-07-20 10:17 -0400
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 07:27 -0700
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 08:09 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Thomas Jollans <t@jollybox.de> - 2011-07-20 17:21 +0200
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 08:40 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-07-20 14:10 +0000
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 07:30 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> - 2011-07-20 07:04 -0400
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-07-20 14:12 +0000
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 07:41 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-07-20 06:08 -0500
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 07:45 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> - 2011-07-20 07:16 -0400
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2011-07-20 13:31 +0200
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 05:52 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 18:17 -0700
    Re: changing thread topics (was: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-07-20 20:38 -0500
    Changing subject sucks. Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 19:34 -0700
      Re: Changing subject sucks. Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-21 14:08 +1000
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2011-07-24 18:51 -0600
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-07-24 22:06 -0400
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 19:06 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 20:32 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2011-07-21 15:44 +1000
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-22 12:30 +1200
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-07-22 23:36 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-23 22:21 +1200
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2011-07-24 13:56 +1000
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-24 15:00 +1000
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-07-24 16:24 -0700

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