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Groups > comp.lang.python > #9954

Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...

Date 2011-07-20 11:59 +0200
From Thomas Jollans <t@jollybox.de>
Subject Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...
References <e1c591ca-ff8e-46f1-8f88-a69ee178bed9@gh5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.1285.1311155998.1164.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On 20/07/11 04:12, sturlamolden wrote:
> 3. Unpythonic memory management: Python references to deleted C++
> objects (PyQt). Manual dialog destruction (wxPython). Parent-child
> ownership might be smart in C++, but in Python we have a garbage
> collector.

I wonder - what do you think of GTK+?
I've only used Qt with C++, and I've always been highly suspicious of wx
(something about the API, or the documentation… I haven't had a look at
it in a long time), but I always found PyGTK quite nice.

> 4. They might look bad (Tkinter, Swing with Jython).

Oh well.

Really, while Swing and Tkinter are particularly bad as they draw their
own widgets (instead of using a native toolkit), if you want your GUI to
look good, you'll need to write a separate GUI for each platform that
follows each platform's UI conventions.

> 5. All projects to write a Python GUI toolkit die before they are
> finished. (General lack of interest, bindings for Qt or wxWidgets
> bloatware are mature, momentum for web development etc.)

Aye, existing GUI toolkits are mature. They work. They do the job.

> 5. No particular GUI thread synchronization is needed  -- Python has a
> GIL.

That's where you're wrong: the GIL is not a feature of Python. It is an
unfortunate implementation detail of current versions of CPython. (and
PyPy, apparently)

> 6. Expose the event loop to Python.

You can tap into the Gtk/GLib event loop. Don't other toolkits allow you
to write your own loop, using some kind of process_events() function to
take care of the GUI?

> 7. Preferably BSD-style license, not even LGPL.

Umm?

> 8. Written for Python in Python -- not bindings for a C++ or tcl
> toolkit.

HOLD ON a second:

> 4. They might look bad (Tkinter, Swing with Jython).

> [...] , if based on "native" widgets:

What do you propose? We know what happens when you write a fresh GUI
toolkit: Swing and Tkinter show us.
The only reasonable option to create a toolkit that actually looks good
is to base it on the "usual" GUI libraries.

> The Eclipse SWT library does some of this for Java does some of this,
> though it also has flaws (e.g. manual memory management). A Python GUI
> toolkit could be partially based on the SWT code.

Okay, I haven't used SWT yet: manual memory management? Java is GC!

It is perfectly reasonable to be required to manually call some sort of
destroy() method to tell the toolkit what you no longer want the user to
see: firstly, you have the display a reference to your window, in a
manner of speaking, by showing it. Secondly, in a GC environment like a
JVM or the CLI, it could take a moment. Was that what you meant?

> Is it worth the hassle to start a new GUI toolkit project?

No.

> Or should modern deskop apps be written with something completely
> different, such as HTML5?

NO!!
Don't be silly. Even using a crappy windowing toolkit is a lot simpler
than doing the HTML/JavaScript/HTTP/etc dance.

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Thread

I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-19 19:12 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-07-19 22:34 -0400
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... lkcl <luke.leighton@gmail.com> - 2011-07-24 12:30 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-19 21:34 -0500
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-22 12:34 +1200
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-22 03:30 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-07-24 10:02 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-25 11:59 +1200
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-07-25 01:37 +0000
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2011-07-19 22:44 -0400
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 06:05 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 20:20 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2011-07-21 10:52 -0400
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-22 03:38 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-20 14:28 +1000
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2011-07-20 09:20 +0200
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-20 17:28 +1000
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 02:51 -0500
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-20 18:25 +1000
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 09:39 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 10:32 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 13:58 -0700
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 15:13 -0700
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 15:52 -0700
            Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 16:02 -0700
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Corey Richardson <kb1pkl@aim.com> - 2011-07-20 18:19 -0400
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 15:41 -0700
        Tkinter in Python has native widgets (was: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-07-21 11:00 +1000
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 01:02 -0600
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Thomas Jollans <t@jollybox.de> - 2011-07-20 11:59 +0200
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Johann Hibschman <jhibschman+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 07:16 -0500
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 06:47 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-07-20 10:17 -0400
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 07:27 -0700
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 08:09 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Thomas Jollans <t@jollybox.de> - 2011-07-20 17:21 +0200
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 08:40 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-07-20 14:10 +0000
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 07:30 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> - 2011-07-20 07:04 -0400
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-07-20 14:12 +0000
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 07:41 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-07-20 06:08 -0500
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 07:45 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> - 2011-07-20 07:16 -0400
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2011-07-20 13:31 +0200
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 05:52 -0700
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 18:17 -0700
    Re: changing thread topics (was: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-07-20 20:38 -0500
    Changing subject sucks. Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 19:34 -0700
      Re: Changing subject sucks. Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-21 14:08 +1000
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2011-07-24 18:51 -0600
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-07-24 22:06 -0400
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 19:06 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 20:32 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2011-07-21 15:44 +1000
  Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-22 12:30 +1200
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-07-22 23:36 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-23 22:21 +1200
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2011-07-24 13:56 +1000
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-24 15:00 +1000
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-07-24 16:24 -0700

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