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Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children

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Date Tue, 5 Aug 2014 23:08:34 +1000
Subject Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children
From Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
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On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:43 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Because it's horrible and a bad idea.
>
> d = {'this': 23, 'word': 42, 'frog': 2, 'copy': 15, 'lunch': 93}
> e = d.copy()
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
> TypeError: 'int' object is not callable
>
>
> Conflating keys in a database with object attributes is one of the classic
> blunders, like getting involved in a land war in Asia. It is, *maybe*,
> barely acceptable as a quick-and-dirty convenience at the interactive
> interpreter, in a Bunch or Bag class that has very little in the way of
> methods or behaviour, but not acceptable for a class as fundamental and
> important as dict. No matter what Javascript thinks.

It's not fundamentally bad, just fundamentally incompatible with any
other use of methods. Really, what you're pointing out isn't so much a
problem with conflating keys and attributes as it is with using
attributes for two purposes: key lookup, and method lookup. And that's
*always* going to be a bad thing. Imagine this class:

class BadDict(dict):
    def __getitem__(self, key):
        if key == 'copy': return self.copy
        return super().__getitem__(key)

Now I've just gone the other way - overloading square brackets to
sometimes mean key lookup, and sometimes attribute lookup. And it's
the two meanings on one notation, not the two notations for one
meaning, that's the bad idea.

ChrisA

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Thread

3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Mark Summerfield <list@qtrac.plus.com> - 2014-08-01 23:45 -0700
  Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-02 10:14 +0300
    Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Mark Summerfield <list@qtrac.plus.com> - 2014-08-02 00:38 -0700
      Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-02 11:03 +0300
        Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-03 02:00 +1000
          Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-02 20:07 +0300
            Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-02 18:29 +0100
              Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-02 21:33 +0300
    Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-03 01:43 +1000
      Correct type for a simple “bag of attributes” namespace object (was: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-08-03 05:58 +1000
        Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object (was: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children) Mark Summerfield <list@qtrac.plus.com> - 2014-08-02 13:46 -0700
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object (was: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-03 07:05 +1000
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-02 22:16 +0100
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-03 07:24 +1000
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-02 22:23 +0100
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object (was: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children) Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2014-08-02 16:18 -0700
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object (was: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-03 09:27 +1000
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object (was: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children) Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-08-02 18:59 -0600
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-08-02 22:40 -0400
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-08-02 22:43 -0400
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Albert-Jan Roskam <fomcl@yahoo.com> - 2014-08-03 02:17 -0700
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2014-08-03 11:37 +0200
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Albert-Jan Roskam <fomcl@yahoo.com> - 2014-08-03 03:51 -0700
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Albert-Jan Roskam <fomcl@yahoo.com> - 2014-08-03 04:14 -0700
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2014-08-03 13:23 +0200
            Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-03 17:51 +0300
              Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-03 11:09 -0400
                Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-03 18:52 +0300
              Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-08-03 18:55 -0400
                Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-04 11:19 +1000
                Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-08-04 01:26 -0400
              Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-04 10:13 +1000
                Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-03 20:59 -0400
                Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-04 13:00 +1200
                Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-04 08:41 +0300
                Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-08-04 00:41 -0600
                Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-04 09:57 +0300
          Re: Correct type for a simple "bag of attributes" namespace object Akira Li <4kir4.1i@gmail.com> - 2014-08-03 18:22 +0400
      Re: Correct type for a simple “bag of attributes” namespace object Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-03 13:28 +0100
        Re: Correct type for a simple “bag of attributes” namespace object Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-03 08:40 -0400
          Re: Correct type for a simple “bag of attributes” namespace object Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-03 22:56 +1000
            Re: Correct type for a simple “bag of attributes” namespace object Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-03 09:25 -0400
              Re: Correct type for a simple “bag of attributes” namespace object Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-03 23:35 +1000
                Re: Correct type for a simple “bag of attributes” namespace object Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-03 10:36 -0400
                Re: Correct type for a simple “bag of attributes” namespace object Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-04 01:00 +1000
      Re: Correct type for a simple “bag of attributes” namespace object Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-03 18:38 +0100
        Re: Correct type for a simple “bag of attributes” namespace object Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-03 13:44 -0400
  Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-02 08:46 +0100
    Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Mark Summerfield <list@qtrac.plus.com> - 2014-08-02 01:03 -0700
      Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-08-02 19:14 -0400
  Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-08-02 19:12 -0400
  Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Brian Blais <bblais@gmail.com> - 2014-08-05 07:36 -0400
    Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-05 15:04 +0300
      Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2014-08-05 07:31 -0500
        Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-05 16:19 +0300
          Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-08-05 15:11 +0100
          Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-06 02:14 +1000
      Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-05 22:43 +1000
        Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-05 23:08 +1000
      Re: 3 Suggestions to Make Python Easier For Children Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-05 23:00 +1000

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