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| From | Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> |
| Date | Sun, 17 Jul 2011 16:39:33 -0600 |
| Subject | Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. |
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On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 2:12 PM, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote: > On the face of it one might think vertical tabs are a good idea > however newlines work just fine. There is no reason for expanding > vertical whitespace to create readble code. If you can offer a good > reason i'm listening. Also be sure to post links where others have > requested the same. Okay: 1) Vertical tabs create freedom in the form of user controlled vertical spacing. Vertical spacing height should be a choice of the reader NOT the author. We should never "code in" vertical spacing height; but that is EXACTLY what we are doing with newlines! No, the reader should be able to choose the vertical spacing height without ANY formatting required or without any collateral damage to the source code. Vertical tabs offer freedom, newlines offer oppression. 2) Vertical tabs remove the need for complicated newline-formatting tools. With "vertical tabs only" you no longer need those fancy tools to add the correct number of newlines between classes or methods.. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY VERTICAL TABS WHERE INVENTED! Why are we not using this technology? Why are we continuing to promote newlines when vertical tabs are obviously more superior? And as to why we should remove newlines: 3) Using only one vertical space token removes any chance of user error. Unlike many syntactical errors, vertical space is invisible in a text/ source editor. Sure there are tools that can make vertical space visible, however why do we constantly create asinine rules that force us to use complicated tools when we could have choose vertical tabs and none of this would have been a problem? 4) Vertical tabs maintain unity in the source code base. When we replace "newlines only" with "vertical tabs only" we maintain a code base that promotes unity and not conformity. There shall not be any "inconsistent vertical spacing errors" due to mixing vertical tabs and newlines. Also we can avoid adding multiplicity to the compiler. The compiler will not have to consider BOTH vertical tabs AND newlines as valid vertical spacing tokens, only vertical tabs. The logic would be much simpler. > Besides, horizontal tabs are tied closely to distinguishing code > blocks. Vertical tabs do not have such a benefit. Instead of vertical > tabs we need strict rules on vertical code formatting. I intend to > draft AND implement such rules very shortly. Vertical spacing helps to visually separate classes from other classes, and methods from other methods. >> I think I get it now. Your idea of "freedom" is that anybody can do >> whatever they want as long as it's not illegal, > > In a programming language yes. You're trying to draw correlations > between morality and law. In the arena of programming there is no such > thing as morality, only the law. You have been drawing the same correlation from your very first post where you stated, "Tabs offer freedom, spaces offer oppression." >> and the ruling party >> just makes anything it doesn't like illegal. In other words, a >> monarchy. > > What do you think we have now, a democracy? Does "Benevolent?-Dictator- > For-Life" ring a bell? I don't see Guido going around making ridiculous pronouncements about what forms of indentation are acceptable (beyond the standards that are set and expected for the standard library, that is). He could have made the language space-only from the very beginning. He didn't; that should tell you something. He also could have insisted that the parser only accept source written in the ISO-8859-1 encoding "for unity and freedom", but he didn't. Or he could have stated "absolute imports only" from the very beginning, and yet even in Python 3 where the old-style relative imports have been removed, relative imports are still available to be used. > I can tell you one thing for sure. In MY version of Python everyone > will have a voice. That does not mean that EVERYONE will make the > final decision but EVERYONE's voice will be equally important. Thanks, but I won't be needing a voice, because your version of Python will clearly be too limiting from the ground up for me to have any interest in using it in the first place. > I can > also tell you this. I will not hide under the coat tails of my dev > team , NO, i will mingle with the people on my comp.lang.rickpy list. > Mats (Ruby's creator) will answer questions on comp.lang.ruby so why > does Guido refuse to acknowledge us here on comp.lang.python? Probably for the same reason that (I presume) he doesn't spend all day answering Python questions on stackoverflow or responding to comments about Python on slashdot: he can get more done in his actual job by unsubscribing. If you want to have input on Python, all you have to do is subscribe to python-dev. Of course, it *is* a moderated list, so if you make as much of a nuisance of yourself over there as you do here, they might kick you out.
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Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-16 09:51 -0700
Re: feeding the troll (was: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won.) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-07-16 12:52 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-16 17:59 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-07-16 16:06 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 02:29 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-07-18 22:36 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 01:39 -0600
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2011-07-17 09:52 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-17 13:09 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. anand jeyahar <anand.ibmgsi@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 09:29 +0530
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2011-07-17 14:12 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 01:32 -0600
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. TheSaint <no@nowhere.net.no> - 2011-07-17 21:12 +0800
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 08:15 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-07-17 13:22 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 12:49 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 12:48 -0600
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 12:54 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 16:02 -0600
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-07-17 19:29 -0400
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 18:55 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-07-17 20:28 -0400
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 19:48 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 19:50 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-07-17 21:06 -0400
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-07-17 21:06 -0400
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-18 11:01 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-18 11:12 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-07-18 11:42 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-18 18:26 +1200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-07-18 05:52 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2011-07-18 13:52 +0000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2011-07-18 17:59 +0100
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-07-18 19:07 -0400
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-19 00:59 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dave Angel <davea@ieee.org> - 2011-07-18 13:11 -0400
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. python@bdurham.com - 2011-07-18 08:33 -0400
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2011-07-18 10:12 -0400
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. tinnews@isbd.co.uk - 2011-07-18 10:49 +0100
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-18 21:51 +0300
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-18 14:06 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-19 05:15 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 02:52 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. "Anders J. Munch" <2011@jmunch.dk> - 2011-07-17 11:49 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 09:53 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-18 03:11 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 10:57 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-18 04:09 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 20:20 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 12:22 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 22:38 +0300
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 22:36 +0300
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-18 10:54 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 20:26 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2011-07-18 09:00 +0300
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2011-07-18 08:14 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-17 21:44 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. "Anders J. Munch" <2011@jmunch.dk> - 2011-07-18 20:19 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-18 10:06 +1200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-18 18:58 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-16 19:29 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-17 13:07 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-16 22:20 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 09:56 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 03:36 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 11:33 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 05:02 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 12:42 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-17 14:35 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 17:03 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-17 21:10 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 09:46 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 18:21 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 10:31 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-07-16 19:27 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 09:35 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 09:29 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-18 02:50 +1000
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 12:54 -0600
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 13:12 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 16:39 -0600
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 18:18 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 11:15 +0300
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-17 14:53 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 22:26 +0300
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-17 21:53 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 23:46 +0300
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 03:35 -0500
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 14:11 +0300
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 04:21 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 13:51 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 22:20 +0300
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 21:34 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 13:22 -0700
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2011-07-17 10:29 -0400
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 17:10 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Corey Richardson <kb1pkl@aim.com> - 2011-07-17 12:28 -0400
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2011-07-18 19:28 +0300
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-18 18:51 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-18 19:07 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. "Waldek M." <wm@localhost.localdomain> - 2011-07-17 21:39 +0200
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 22:28 +0300
Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2011-07-17 20:35 -0400
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