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Re: Newbie question about text encoding

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Date Sat, 7 Mar 2015 02:27:22 +1100
Subject Re: Newbie question about text encoding
From Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Cc "python-list@python.org" <python-list@python.org>
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Xref csiph.com comp.lang.python:87027

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On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 1:50 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Rustom Mody wrote:
>
>> On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 10:50:35 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
> [snip example of an analogous situation with NULs]
>
>> Strawman.
>
> Sigh. If I had a dollar for every time somebody cried "Strawman!" when what
> they really should say is "Yes, that's a good argument, I'm afraid I can't
> argue against it, at least not without considerable thought", I'd be a
> wealthy man...

If I had a dollar for every time anyone said "If I had <insert
currency unit here> for every time...", I'd go meta all day long and
profit from it... :)

> - If you are writing your own file system layer, it's 2015 fer fecks sake,
> file names should be Unicode strings, not bytes! (That's one part of the
> Unix model that needs to die.) You can use UTF-8 or UTF-16 in the file
> system, whichever you please, but again remember that both are
> variable-width formats.

I agree that that part of the Unix model needs to change, but there
are two viable ways to move forward:

1) Keep file names as bytes, but mandate that they be valid UTF-8
streams, and recommend that they be decoded UTF-8 for display to a
human
2) Change the entire protocol stack from the file system upwards so
that file names become Unicode strings.

Trouble with #2 is that file names need to be passed around somehow,
which means bytes in memory. So ultimately, #2 really means "keep file
names as bytes, and mandate an encoding all the way up the stack"...
so it's a massive documentation change that really comes down to the
same thing as #1.

This is one area where, as I understand it, Mac OS got it right. It's
time for other Unix variants to adopt the same policy. The bulk of
file names will be ASCII-only anyway, so requiring UTF-8 won't affect
them; a lot of others are already UTF-8; so all we need is a
transition scheme for the remaining ones. If there's a known FS
encoding, it ought to be possible to have a file system conversion
tool that goes through everything, decodes, re-encodes UTF-8, and then
flags the file system as UTF-8 compliant. All that'd be left would be
the file names that are broken already - ones that don't decode in the
FS encoding - and there's nothing to be done with them but wrap them
up into something probably-meaningless-but reversible.

When can we start doing this? ext5?

ChrisA

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Thread

Newbie question about text encoding pierrick.brihaye@gmail.com - 2015-02-24 02:49 -0800
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-24 22:09 +1100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-24 06:25 -0500
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 15:55 +0100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 02:03 +1100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 16:06 +0100
    Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-24 08:01 -0800
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 16:07 +0100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 02:10 +1100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 16:24 +0100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 02:33 +1100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding random832@fastmail.us - 2015-02-24 10:38 -0500
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 17:20 +0100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 03:24 +1100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-24 12:13 -0500
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 20:45 +0100
    Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-02-25 00:21 +0200
    Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-25 12:20 +1100
      Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-25 06:34 -0800
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 20:57 +0100
    Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-25 12:19 +1100
      Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marcos Almeida Azevedo <marcos.al.azevedo@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 12:54 +0800
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-24 15:41 -0500
    Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-02-26 04:40 -0800
      Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-02-26 05:15 -0800
      Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-27 00:24 +1100
        Re: Newbie question about text encoding Sam Raker <sam.raker@gmail.com> - 2015-02-26 08:45 -0800
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-02-26 09:08 -0800
      Re: Newbie question about text encoding Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-02-26 12:02 -0500
        Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-02-26 09:59 -0800
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-26 12:20 -0800
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-27 09:13 +1100
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-27 12:05 +1100
            Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-26 20:57 -0500
              Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-27 16:58 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-27 02:30 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-27 22:54 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-27 09:02 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-28 01:22 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-02-27 16:00 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-28 03:12 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-02-27 16:45 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-28 04:45 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-02-27 22:13 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-02-27 19:14 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-02-27 22:09 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-27 15:52 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-28 08:04 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-27 10:24 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-02-27 17:46 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-02-27 17:47 +0000
            Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-27 01:06 -0800
        Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-02-26 11:59 -0800
        Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 10:03 -0800
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-03 10:36 -0800
            Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 20:45 -0800
              Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 15:54 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 21:05 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-06 01:06 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-05 06:59 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding random832@fastmail.us - 2015-03-05 14:59 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-06 09:33 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 20:53 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 16:20 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 01:02 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 01:06 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding random832@fastmail.us - 2015-03-06 08:33 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 00:39 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding random832@fastmail.us - 2015-03-06 09:03 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 01:11 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding random832@fastmail.us - 2015-03-06 09:27 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-07 03:26 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 20:54 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 02:07 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-07 01:50 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 02:27 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-06 07:37 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 08:20 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 03:45 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-06 11:41 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-06 11:58 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-03-07 01:11 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-06 23:43 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-07 00:55 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-07 01:08 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 21:25 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-07 22:09 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 22:33 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 13:53 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 23:02 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-07 14:07 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-07 07:28 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-08 02:40 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 17:48 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 03:17 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 18:25 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 03:41 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 18:54 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 03:58 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 04:00 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 19:14 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 04:26 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 19:50 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 04:59 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2015-03-07 18:02 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 05:13 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2015-03-07 18:34 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 05:44 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-07 19:00 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2015-03-07 19:16 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 21:01 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-07 16:40 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 18:48 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-07 17:02 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 19:16 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-07 18:18 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 21:06 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 03:53 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-07 11:03 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-08 12:45 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-08 09:20 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 18:37 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-08 10:09 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 19:23 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-08 01:18 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-09 05:25 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-08 22:09 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-09 12:43 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-09 13:09 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-09 08:31 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-09 13:18 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding random832@fastmail.us - 2015-03-09 00:27 -0400
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-09 07:55 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-09 08:13 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-09 17:34 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-09 17:44 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-09 02:08 -0700
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-09 07:26 -0700
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-09 05:28 -0700
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-08 19:01 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-07 14:13 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 23:23 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-09 05:30 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2015-03-09 13:09 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 19:42 -0700
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-04 19:16 +1100
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 05:43 +1100
            Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 18:53 -0800
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-03-03 18:30 -0500
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-04 13:54 +1100
            Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 14:02 +1100
            Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 20:05 -0800
              Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 20:16 -0800
              Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-04 19:14 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-04 02:16 -0800
      Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-27 04:29 +1100
        Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-27 10:09 +1100
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-27 10:23 +1100

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