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Re: Newbie question about text encoding

References (15 earlier) <132d5ce6-f672-4eec-99f9-1cc9e88b94f3@googlegroups.com> <mailman.33.1425444900.21433.python-list@python.org> <619e4cb5-1c4c-449b-a5d7-951101b32b45@googlegroups.com> <54f862ca$0$13014$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <c6caaa76-f448-4c2f-8874-c1f2716da744@googlegroups.com>
Date 2015-03-06 16:20 +1100
Subject Re: Newbie question about text encoding
From Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.88.1425619223.21433.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> My conclusion: Early adopters of unicode -- Windows and Java -- were punished
> for their early adoption.  You can blame the unicode consortium, you can
> blame the babel of human languages, particularly that some use characters
> and some only (the equivalent of) what we call words.
>
> Or you can skip the blame-game and simply note the fact that large segments of
> extant code-bases are currently in bug-prone or plain buggy state.

For most of the 1990s, I was writing code in REXX, on OS/2. An even
earlier adopter, REXX didn't have Unicode support _at all_, but
instead had facilities for working with DBCS strings. You can't get
everything right AND be the first to produce anything. Python didn't
make Unicode strings the default until 3.0, but that's not Unicode's
fault.

> This includes not just bug-prone-system code such as Java and Windows but
> seemingly working code such as python 3.
>
> Here is Roy's Smith post that first started me thinking that something may
> be wrong with SMP
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/loYWMJnPtos/GHMC0cX_hfgJ
>
> Some parts are here some earlier and from my memory.
> If details wrong please correct:
> - 200 million records
> - Containing 4 strings with SMP characters
> - System made with python and mysql. SMP works with python, breaks mysql.
>   So whole system broke due to those 4 in 200,000,000 records
>
> I know enough (or not enough) of unicode to be chary of statistical conclusions
> from the above.
> My conclusion is essentially an 'existence-proof':

Hang on hang on. Why are you blaming Python or SMP characters for
this? The problem here is MySQL, which doesn't adequately cope with
the full Unicode range. (Or, didn't then, or doesn't with its default
settings. I believe you can configure current versions of MySQL to
work correctly, though I haven't actually checked. PostgreSQL gets it
right, that's good enough for me.)

> SMP-chars can break systems.
> The breakage is costly-fied by the combination
> - layman statistical assumptions
> - BMP → SMP exercises different code-paths

Broken systems can be shown up by anything. Suppose you have a program
that breaks when it gets a NUL character (not unknown in C code); is
the fault with the Unicode consortium for allocating something at
codepoint 0, or the code that can't cope with a perfectly normal
character?

> You could also choose do with "astral crap" (Roy's words) what we all do with
> crap -- throw it out as early as possible.

There's only one character that fits that description, and that's
1F4A9. Everything else is just "astral characters", and you shouldn't
have any difficulties with them.

ChrisA

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Newbie question about text encoding pierrick.brihaye@gmail.com - 2015-02-24 02:49 -0800
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-24 22:09 +1100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-24 06:25 -0500
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 15:55 +0100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 02:03 +1100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 16:06 +0100
    Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-24 08:01 -0800
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 16:07 +0100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 02:10 +1100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 16:24 +0100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 02:33 +1100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding random832@fastmail.us - 2015-02-24 10:38 -0500
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 17:20 +0100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 03:24 +1100
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-24 12:13 -0500
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 20:45 +0100
    Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-02-25 00:21 +0200
    Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-25 12:20 +1100
      Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-25 06:34 -0800
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-02-24 20:57 +0100
    Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-25 12:19 +1100
      Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marcos Almeida Azevedo <marcos.al.azevedo@gmail.com> - 2015-02-25 12:54 +0800
  Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-24 15:41 -0500
    Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-02-26 04:40 -0800
      Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-02-26 05:15 -0800
      Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-27 00:24 +1100
        Re: Newbie question about text encoding Sam Raker <sam.raker@gmail.com> - 2015-02-26 08:45 -0800
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-02-26 09:08 -0800
      Re: Newbie question about text encoding Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-02-26 12:02 -0500
        Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-02-26 09:59 -0800
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-26 12:20 -0800
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-27 09:13 +1100
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-27 12:05 +1100
            Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-26 20:57 -0500
              Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-27 16:58 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-27 02:30 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-27 22:54 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-27 09:02 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-28 01:22 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-02-27 16:00 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-28 03:12 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-02-27 16:45 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-28 04:45 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-02-27 22:13 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-02-27 19:14 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-02-27 22:09 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-27 15:52 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-28 08:04 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-02-27 10:24 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-02-27 17:46 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-02-27 17:47 +0000
            Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-27 01:06 -0800
        Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-02-26 11:59 -0800
        Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 10:03 -0800
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-03 10:36 -0800
            Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 20:45 -0800
              Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 15:54 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 21:05 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-06 01:06 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-05 06:59 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding random832@fastmail.us - 2015-03-05 14:59 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-06 09:33 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 20:53 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 16:20 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 01:02 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 01:06 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding random832@fastmail.us - 2015-03-06 08:33 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 00:39 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding random832@fastmail.us - 2015-03-06 09:03 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 01:11 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding random832@fastmail.us - 2015-03-06 09:27 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-07 03:26 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 20:54 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 02:07 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-07 01:50 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 02:27 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-06 07:37 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 08:20 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 03:45 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-06 11:41 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-06 11:58 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-03-07 01:11 -0500
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-06 23:43 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-07 00:55 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-07 01:08 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 21:25 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-07 22:09 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 22:33 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 13:53 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 23:02 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-07 14:07 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-07 07:28 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-08 02:40 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 17:48 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 03:17 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 18:25 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 03:41 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 18:54 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 03:58 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 04:00 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 19:14 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 04:26 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 19:50 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 04:59 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2015-03-07 18:02 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 05:13 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2015-03-07 18:34 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 05:44 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-07 19:00 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2015-03-07 19:16 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 21:01 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-07 16:40 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 18:48 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-07 17:02 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-07 19:16 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-07 18:18 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 21:06 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 03:53 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-07 11:03 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-08 12:45 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-08 09:20 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 18:37 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-08 10:09 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 19:23 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-08 01:18 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-09 05:25 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-08 22:09 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-09 12:43 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-09 13:09 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-09 08:31 +0200
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-09 13:18 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding random832@fastmail.us - 2015-03-09 00:27 -0400
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-09 07:55 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-09 08:13 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-09 17:34 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-09 17:44 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-09 02:08 -0700
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-09 07:26 -0700
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-09 05:28 -0700
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-08 19:01 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-07 14:13 +0000
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-07 23:23 -0800
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-09 05:30 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2015-03-09 13:09 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-08 19:42 -0700
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-04 19:16 +1100
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 05:43 +1100
            Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 18:53 -0800
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-03-03 18:30 -0500
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-04 13:54 +1100
            Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 14:02 +1100
            Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 20:05 -0800
              Re: Newbie question about text encoding Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 20:16 -0800
              Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-04 19:14 +1100
                Re: Newbie question about text encoding wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-04 02:16 -0800
      Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-27 04:29 +1100
        Re: Newbie question about text encoding Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-02-27 10:09 +1100
          Re: Newbie question about text encoding Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-02-27 10:23 +1100

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