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Re: Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding)

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Date Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:31:23 -0500
From Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu>
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To Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject Re: Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding)
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On 01/-10/-28163 01:59 PM, Ross Ridge wrote:
> Evan Driscoll<driscoll@cs.wisc.edu>  wrote:
>> People like you -- who write to assumptions which are not even remotely
>> guaranteed by the spec -- are part of the reason software sucks.
> ...
>> This email is a bit harsher than it deserves -- but I feel not by much.
>
> I don't see how you could feel the least bit justified.  Well meaning,
> if unhelpful, lies about the nature Python strings in order to try to
> convince someone to follow what you think are good programming practices
> is one thing.  Maliciously lying about someone else's code that you've
> never seen is another thing entirely.

I'm not even talking about code that you or the OP has written. I'm 
talking about your suggestion that

    I can in fact say what the internal byte string representation
    of strings is any given build of Python 3.

Aside from the questionable truth of this assertion (there's no 
guarantee that an implementation uses one consistent encoding or data 
structure representation consistently), that's of no consequence because 
you can't depend on what the representation is. So why even bring it up?

Also irrelevant is:

   In practice the number of ways that CPython (the only Python 3
   implementation) represents strings is much more limited.
   Pretending otherwise really isn't helpful.

If you can't depend on CPython's implementation (and, I would argue, 
your code is broken if you do), then it *is* helpful. Saying that "you 
can just look at what CPython does" is what is unhelpful.


That said, looking again I did misread your post that I sent that harsh 
reply to; I was looking at it perhaps a bit too much through the lens of 
the CPython comment I said above, and interpreting it as "I can say what 
the internal representation is of CPython, so just give me that" and 
launched into my spiel. If that's not what was intended, I retract my 
statement. As long as everyone is clear on the fact that Python 3 
implementations can use whatever encoding and data structures they want, 
perhaps even different encodings or data structures for equal strings, 
and that as a consequence saying "what's the internal representation of 
this string" is a meaningless question as far as Python itself is 
concerned, I'm happy.

Evan

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Thread

"convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Peter Daum <gator@cs.tu-berlin.de> - 2012-03-28 10:56 +0200
  Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-28 20:02 +1100
    Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Peter Daum <gator@cs.tu-berlin.de> - 2012-03-28 11:43 +0200
      Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Heiko Wundram <modelnine@modelnine.org> - 2012-03-28 12:42 +0200
        Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Peter Daum <gator@cs.tu-berlin.de> - 2012-03-28 19:43 +0200
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Heiko Wundram <modelnine@modelnine.org> - 2012-03-28 20:13 +0200
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2012-03-28 21:13 +0300
            RE: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-03-28 18:31 +0000
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-03-28 11:49 -0700
          RE: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-03-28 18:20 +0000
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-03-28 12:20 -0600
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-28 18:26 +0000
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-03-28 19:40 +0000
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-03-28 11:17 -0700
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-03-28 12:30 -0700
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-28 17:37 -0400
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Peter Daum <gator@cs.tu-berlin.de> - 2012-03-29 16:57 +0200
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Peter Daum <gator@cs.tu-berlin.de> - 2012-03-29 16:57 +0200
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 22:06 +0300
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 06:10 +1100
      Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-03-28 13:25 +0200
      Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-28 18:12 +0000
    Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 11:36 -0400
      Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 03:18 +1100
        Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-03-28 16:33 +0000
        Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 14:05 -0400
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2012-03-28 13:49 -0500
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 15:10 -0400
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) "Albert W. Hopkins" <marduk@letterboxes.org> - 2012-03-28 15:22 -0400
      Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-28 17:54 +0000
        Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 14:22 -0400
          Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-03-28 14:20 -0500
            Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 15:43 -0400
              Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-28 21:44 +0100
              Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2012-03-28 20:56 +0000
              Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-29 00:02 +0000
              Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-03-28 19:11 -0500
                Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 23:04 -0400
                Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 14:31 +1100
                Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 23:58 -0400
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-29 07:01 +0100
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-29 06:51 +0000
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-29 11:30 -0400
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-29 12:49 -0400
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-29 14:00 -0400
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 07:41 +1100
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-30 01:16 +0000
                Re: Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-03-29 11:31 -0500
          RE: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-03-28 19:02 +0000
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-03-28 19:44 +0000
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-03-28 20:50 +0100
          RE: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-03-29 17:36 +0000
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-30 01:10 +0000
              Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> - 2012-03-30 09:04 +0200
      Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-28 14:11 -0400
  Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-03-28 11:08 +0200
  Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-03-28 13:16 -0400

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