Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding)

Date	2012-03-28 19:11 -0500
From	Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu>
Subject	Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding)
References	<9tg21lFmo3U1@mid.dfncis.de> <4f73504c$0$29981$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <jkvktq$u16$1@rumours.uwaterloo.ca> <mailman.1092.1332962455.3037.python-list@python.org> <jkvpl3$8tg$1@rumours.uwaterloo.ca>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.1104.1332980161.3037.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On 3/28/2012 14:43, Ross Ridge wrote:
> Evan Driscoll  <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
>> So yes, you can say that pretending there's not a mapping of strings to 
>> internal representation is silly, because there is. However, there's 
>> nothing you can say about that mapping.
> 
> I'm not the one labeling anything as being silly.  I'm the one labeling
> the things as bullshit, and that's what you're doing here.  I can in
> fact say what the internal byte string representation of strings is any
> given build of Python 3.  Just because I can't say what it would be in
> an imaginary hypothetical implementation doesn't mean I can never say
> anything about it.

People like you -- who write to assumptions which are not even remotely
guaranteed by the spec -- are part of the reason software sucks.

People like you hold back progress, because system implementers aren't
free to make changes without breaking backwards compatibility. Enormous
amounts of effort are expended to test programs and diagnose problems
which are caused by unwarranted assumptions like "the encoding of a
string is UTF-8". In the worst case, assumptions like that lead to
security fixes that don't go as far as they could, like the recent
discussion about hashing.

Python is definitely closer to the "willing to break backwards
compatibility to improve" end of the spectrum than some other projects
(*cough* Windows *cough*), but that still doesn't mean that you can make
assumptions like that.

This email is a bit harsher than it deserves -- but I feel not by much.

Evan

Thread

"convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Peter Daum <gator@cs.tu-berlin.de> - 2012-03-28 10:56 +0200
  Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-28 20:02 +1100
    Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Peter Daum <gator@cs.tu-berlin.de> - 2012-03-28 11:43 +0200
      Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Heiko Wundram <modelnine@modelnine.org> - 2012-03-28 12:42 +0200
        Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Peter Daum <gator@cs.tu-berlin.de> - 2012-03-28 19:43 +0200
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Heiko Wundram <modelnine@modelnine.org> - 2012-03-28 20:13 +0200
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2012-03-28 21:13 +0300
            RE: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-03-28 18:31 +0000
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-03-28 11:49 -0700
          RE: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-03-28 18:20 +0000
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-03-28 12:20 -0600
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-28 18:26 +0000
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-03-28 19:40 +0000
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-03-28 11:17 -0700
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-03-28 12:30 -0700
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-28 17:37 -0400
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Peter Daum <gator@cs.tu-berlin.de> - 2012-03-29 16:57 +0200
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Peter Daum <gator@cs.tu-berlin.de> - 2012-03-29 16:57 +0200
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 22:06 +0300
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 06:10 +1100
      Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-03-28 13:25 +0200
      Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-28 18:12 +0000
    Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 11:36 -0400
      Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 03:18 +1100
        Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-03-28 16:33 +0000
        Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 14:05 -0400
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2012-03-28 13:49 -0500
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 15:10 -0400
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) "Albert W. Hopkins" <marduk@letterboxes.org> - 2012-03-28 15:22 -0400
      Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-28 17:54 +0000
        Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 14:22 -0400
          Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-03-28 14:20 -0500
            Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 15:43 -0400
              Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-28 21:44 +0100
              Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2012-03-28 20:56 +0000
              Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-29 00:02 +0000
              Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-03-28 19:11 -0500
                Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 23:04 -0400
                Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 14:31 +1100
                Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-28 23:58 -0400
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-29 07:01 +0100
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-29 06:51 +0000
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-29 11:30 -0400
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-29 12:49 -0400
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> - 2012-03-29 14:00 -0400
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 07:41 +1100
                Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-30 01:16 +0000
                Re: Re: Re: Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-03-29 11:31 -0500
          RE: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-03-28 19:02 +0000
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-03-28 19:44 +0000
          Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-03-28 20:50 +0100
          RE: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-03-29 17:36 +0000
            Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-30 01:10 +0000
              Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> - 2012-03-30 09:04 +0200
      Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-28 14:11 -0400
  Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-03-28 11:08 +0200
  Re: "convert" string to bytes without changing data (encoding) Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-03-28 13:16 -0400

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