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Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ...

Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Date 2012-09-02 11:58 -0700
References (18 earlier) <503f0e45$0$9416$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com> <b7ec5b30-5284-4bec-ba3e-999d1b5ad92d@googlegroups.com> <mailman.3974.1346338910.4697.python-list@python.org> <2a12ba52-232a-41b7-a906-1ec379bbddd7@googlegroups.com> <mailman.68.1346576808.27098.python-list@python.org>
Subject Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ...
From wxjmfauth@gmail.com
Message-ID <mailman.102.1346612296.27098.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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Le dimanche 2 septembre 2012 11:07:35 UTC+2, Ian a écrit :
> On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 1:36 AM,  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I still remember my thoughts when I read the PEP 393
> 
> > discussion: "this is not logical", "they do no understand
> 
> > typography", "atomic character ???", ...
> 
> 
> 
> That would indicate one of two possibilities.  Either:
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Everybody in the PEP 393 discussion except for you is clueless
> 
> about how to implement a Unicode type; or
> 
> 
> 
> 2) You are clueless about how to implement a Unicode type.
> 
> 
> 
> Taking into account Occam's razor, and also that you seem to be unable
> 
> or unwilling to offer a solid rationale for those thoughts, I have to
> 
> say that I'm currently leaning toward the second possibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Real world exemples.
> 
> >
> 
> >>>> import libfrancais
> 
> >>>> li = ['noël', 'noir', 'nœud', 'noduleux', \
> 
> > ...     'noétique', 'noèse', 'noirâtre']
> 
> >>>> r = libfrancais.sortfr(li)
> 
> >>>> r
> 
> > ['noduleux', 'noël', 'noèse', 'noétique', 'nœud', 'noir',
> 
> > 'noirâtre']
> 
> 
> 
> libfrancais does not appear to be publicly available.  It's not listed
> 
> in PyPI, and googling for "python libfrancais" turns up nothing
> 
> relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> Rewriting the example to use locale.strcoll instead:
> 
> 
> 
> >>> li = ['noël', 'noir', 'nœud', 'noduleux', 'noétique', 'noèse', 'noirâtre']
> 
> >>> import locale
> 
> >>> locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, 'French_France')
> 
> 'French_France.1252'
> 
> >>> import functools
> 
> >>> sorted(li, key=functools.cmp_to_key(locale.strcoll))
> 
> ['noduleux', 'noël', 'noèse', 'noétique', 'nœud', 'noir', 'noirâtre']
> 
> 
> 
> # Python 3.2
> 
> >>> import timeit
> 
> >>> timeit.repeat("sorted(li, key=functools.cmp_to_key(locale.strcoll))", "import functools; import locale; li = ['noël', 'noir', 'nœud', 'noduleux', 'noétique', 'noèse', 'noirâtre']", number=10000)
> 
> [0.5544277025009592, 0.5370117249557325, 0.5551836677925053]
> 
> 
> 
> # Python 3.3
> 
> >>> import timeit
> 
> >>> timeit.repeat("sorted(li, key=functools.cmp_to_key(locale.strcoll))", "import functools; import locale; li = ['noël', 'noir', 'nœud', 'noduleux', 'noétique', 'noèse', 'noirâtre']", number=10000)
> 
> [0.1421166788364303, 0.12389078130001963, 0.13184190553613462]
> 

> 
> As you can see, Python 3.3 is about 77% faster than Python 3.2 on this
> 
> example.  If this was intended to show that the Python 3.3 Unicode
> 
> representation is a regression over the Python 3.2 implementation,
> 
> then it's a complete failure as an example.


- Unfortunately, I got opposite and even much worst results on my win box,
considering
- libfrancais is one of my module and it does a little bit more than
the std sorting tools. 

My rationale: very simple.

1) I never heard about something better than sticking with one
of the Unicode coding scheme. (genreral theory)
2) I am not at all convinced by the "new" Py 3.3 algorithm. I'm not the
only one guy, who noticed problems. Arguing, "it is fast enough", is not
a correct answer.

jmf

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Thread

Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-23 05:47 -0700
  Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Neil Hodgson <nhodgson@iinet.net.au> - 2012-08-23 23:57 +1000
    Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-08-23 16:11 +0100
    Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 09:19 -0600
    Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-23 11:33 -0700
      Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 13:22 -0600
        Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 09:06 -0700
          Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-24 17:47 +0100
          Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-24 14:34 -0400
      Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 20:34 +0100
  Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 15:18 +0100
  Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ramchandra Apte <maniandram01@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 07:38 -0700
    Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> - 2012-08-25 00:24 +0000
      Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-25 00:27 -0700
        Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-25 17:54 +1000
      Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-25 00:27 -0700
        Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-25 09:58 +0100
        Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Frank Millman <frank@chagford.com> - 2012-08-25 11:46 +0200
          Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-25 08:47 -0700
          Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-25 08:47 -0700
            Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 16:26 -0600
              Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-25 23:59 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 09:50 -0600
              Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-25 23:59 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 11:49 +0000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 09:40 -0600
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 20:13 +0000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2012-08-26 13:45 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-27 12:16 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 14:14 -0600
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-27 13:37 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-29 04:38 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-29 04:38 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Neil Hodgson <nhodgson@iinet.net.au> - 2012-08-28 09:54 +1000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-29 13:59 +1000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-28 22:15 -0600
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-29 08:05 +0000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-29 04:40 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-08-29 08:01 -0400
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-29 08:43 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-30 06:55 +0000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-30 18:59 +1000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-30 07:02 -0400
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-30 16:00 +0000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-30 16:44 -0400
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-31 12:32 +0000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-31 09:13 -0600
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-31 08:43 -0400
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-31 14:54 +0000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> - 2012-08-30 15:01 +0000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-02 00:36 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-02 09:58 +0100
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-09-02 03:06 -0600
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-02 11:58 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-09-02 13:45 -0600
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-09-02 16:07 -0400
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-02 16:38 -0400
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-03 01:42 +0000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-03 18:26 +0300
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-04 00:53 +0000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-02 11:58 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2012-09-02 11:52 +0200
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-02 11:36 +0100
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-02 15:00 +0300
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-02 22:39 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-03 07:11 +0100
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2012-09-03 08:15 +0200
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-03 04:38 -0400
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-03 18:56 +0300
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-02 22:39 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-02 13:23 +0100
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-09-02 08:35 -0400
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ramchandra Apte <maniandram01@gmail.com> - 2012-09-02 06:48 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-02 15:46 +0100
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ramchandra Apte <maniandram01@gmail.com> - 2012-09-02 06:48 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-09-03 12:33 -0600
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-02 00:36 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-30 10:27 -0600
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-02 23:38 +0300
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-03 01:54 +0000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-02 22:33 -0400
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-09-03 11:24 -0400
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-03 18:41 +0300
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-03 00:45 +0300
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-30 01:54 +1000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-29 22:34 +1000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-29 04:40 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-27 12:16 -0700
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 15:42 -0600
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 23:31 +0000
                Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-26 17:47 -0700
        Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 21:04 +1000
        Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-25 12:05 +0100
        Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 21:19 +1000
        Re: Flexible string representation, unicode, typography, ... Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-25 07:23 -0400

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