Re: should "self" be changed?

Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Date	2015-05-26 20:15 -0700
References	<551c8229-f426-45f0-a0ee-fdad1b161f59@googlegroups.com> <mailman.60.1432659453.5151.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID	<a24dc44a-bfe2-433e-97e9-bc1a72cc70b0@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: should "self" be changed?
From	zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com>

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On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-5, Laura Creighton wrote:
> In a message of Tue, 26 May 2015 09:37:29 -0700, zipher writes:
> >Would it be prudent to rid the long-standing "argument" (pun unintended) about self and the ulterior spellings of it, by changing it into a symbol rather than a name?  
> >
> >Something like:
> >
> >class MyClass(object):
> >
> >    def __init__(@):
> >        @.dummy = None
> >
> >OR, even better, getting *rid of it* in the parameter list, so it stops confusing people about how many parameters a method needs, and transform it into a true *operator*.
> >
> >class MyClass(object):
> >
> >    def __init__(): #takes no arguments!
> >        @.dummy = None  #the @ invokes the class object's dictionary
> >
> >That would seem to be a nice solution to the problem, really.  It doesn't become PERLish because you've made it into a genuine operator -- "self" was always a non-variable that looked like a variable and hence created an itch that couldn't be scratched.
> >
> >Anyone else have any thoughts?
> 
> Guido did.  :)
> http://neopythonic.blogspot.se/2008/10/why-explicit-self-has-to-stay.html

Nice link, thanks.

I see the problem.  I was under the false impression that Python's lexer built an *abstract syntax tree* (see wikipedia for a nice description) like C does so that lexical items like functions and objects are defined.  As it stands now, Python doesn't even seem to know what an *expression* is.

Guido hasn't defined his language so that an object is defined lexically, so he's cheating a little by requiring "self" to be passed in.  If Python were to be defined more completely, all his points in reference to Bruce Eckel's suggestion would be moot.  A method would automatically (not auto*magically*) know what class they are in.

Mark

Thread

should "self" be changed? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 09:37 -0700
  Re: should "self" be changed? Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-05-26 18:57 +0200
    Re: should "self" be changed? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 20:01 -0700
    Re: should "self" be changed? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 20:15 -0700
  Re: should "self" be changed? Laurent Pointal <laurent.pointal@free.fr> - 2015-05-26 18:59 +0200
  Re: should "self" be changed? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-26 18:28 +0100
    Re: should "self" be changed? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 19:48 -0700
      Re: should "self" be changed? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 20:17 -0700
        Re: should "self" be changed? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-05-27 14:39 +1000
          Re: should "self" be changed? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-27 15:47 +1000
            Re: should "self" be changed? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-05-27 21:29 +1000
              Re: should "self" be changed? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 05:40 -0700
                Re: should "self" be changed? Todd <toddrjen@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 15:00 +0200
                Re: should "self" be changed? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-05-27 14:19 +0000
                Re: should "self" be changed? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-30 16:18 -0700
            Re: should "self" be changed? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-30 16:10 -0700
          Re: should "self" be changed? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-30 16:13 -0700
  Re: should "self" be changed? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 03:31 +1000
  Re: should "self" be changed? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-05-26 14:11 -0400
  Re: should "self" be changed? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-26 22:46 +0300
    Re: should "self" be changed? Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2015-05-26 13:04 -0700
      Re: should "self" be changed? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-26 23:36 +0300
        Re: should "self" be changed? Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2015-05-28 17:07 +0300
          Re: should "self" be changed? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-28 18:01 +0300
            Re: should "self" be changed? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-28 09:40 -0600
              Re: should "self" be changed? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-28 19:59 +0300
                Re: should "self" be changed? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 03:06 +1000
                Re: should "self" be changed? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-30 16:39 -0700
            Re: should "self" be changed? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-29 12:00 +1000
              Re: should "self" be changed? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-29 15:46 +1000
              Re: should "self" be changed? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-03 02:50 +1000
                Re: should "self" be changed? "Dr. BigCock" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 10:16 -0700
                Re: should "self" be changed? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-02 20:19 +0300
                Re: should "self" be changed? "Dr. Bigcock" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 11:02 -0700
                Re: should "self" be changed? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 19:39 -0600
                Re: should "self" be changed? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-03 17:05 +1000
    Re: should "self" be changed? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-27 15:20 +1000
  Re: should "self" be changed? garabik-news-2005-05@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk - 2015-05-26 20:26 +0000
    Re: should "self" be changed? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-26 21:45 +0100
      Re: should "self" be changed? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-27 15:23 +1000
        Re: should "self" be changed? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 16:32 +1000
          Re: should "self" be changed? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-27 10:39 +0300
            Re: should "self" be changed? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 18:20 +1000
            Re: should "self" be changed? zipher <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-05-30 16:15 -0700
        Re: should "self" be changed? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-27 17:59 -0400
    Re: should "self" be changed? Vito De Tullio <vito.detullio@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 23:17 +0200
    Re: should "self" be changed? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-05-26 16:10 -0500
  Re: should "self" be changed? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-27 15:17 +1000

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