Re: Slices time complexity

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From	Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: Slices time complexity
Date	Tue, 19 May 2015 21:19:26 +0300
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Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:

> On Wed, 20 May 2015 01:59 am, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> You're slaying straw men.
>
> "I was wrong, but I don't want to admit it" is not spelled "straw man".
>
> You made a claim that was not defensible, and I tore that claim to shreds.
> Have the good grace to admit that your earlier position:
>
>     "it doesn't matter what semantic description you give Python 
>     constructs as long as the observed behavior is correct"

I stand by that position and haven't changed it.

> doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

But it does.

>> Jython, CPython and IronPython are supposed to be semantically
>> equivalent. So any valid CPython model is also a valid model for
>> Jython and IronPython.
>
> They are only supposed to equivalent in regards to behaviour specified by
> the language specifications,

Naturally.

> One such implementation-dependent behaviour is whether Python objects
> have a fixed location or not.

Whatever that means.

> CPython objects currently do.

As far as the process's virtual memory goes...

> Jython and IronPython objects do not, they can move in memory, so
> references in those two implementations cannot be implemented as
> pointers or memory addresses.

Semantics can be given in terms of memory addresses even if the
implementation does not have memory addresses (in the sense you're
describing).

>>> Mixing descriptions of a specific implementation with descriptions
>>> of the high level semantics is sometimes useful but often
>>> misleading, and one needs to be careful how and when one does it.
>> 
>> Nobody has proposed doing that.
>
> You did. Pointers are the CPython implementation, they are not the
> high level semantics.

The semantics can be expressed in any manner whatsoever regardless of
how Python has been "really" implemented. Formally, informally. In
English. In Russian. Using Turing machines, using x86 machine language,
using Forth. There's an infinitum of isomorphic descriptions, some
instructive, some confusing.

The touchstone is the observed behavior.

Marko

Thread

Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 20:23 +0100
  Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 05:36 +1000
    Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 20:49 +0100
      Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 06:04 +1000
  Re: Slices time complexity Todd <toddrjen@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 21:42 +0200
  Re: Slices time complexity Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 13:49 -0600
    Re: Slices time complexity Fabien <fabien.maussion@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 21:54 +0200
      Re: Slices time complexity Todd <toddrjen@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 22:23 +0200
    Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 22:04 +0100
      Re: Slices time complexity Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-18 22:38 +0100
      Re: Slices time complexity Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-18 19:04 -0400
    Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 19:20 -0700
      Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 15:13 +1000
        Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 22:33 -0700
          Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 10:12 +0300
            Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 18:16 +1000
              Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 11:39 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 18:50 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 12:35 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 23:44 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-05-20 23:54 +0200
                Re: Slices time complexity Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-19 23:00 +1200
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 11:47 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-05-20 08:07 -0400
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 22:42 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 23:24 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-20 12:31 +1200
                Re: Slices time complexity Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-05-20 10:42 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 07:24 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 21:30 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-20 06:06 +0100
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 15:57 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 09:17 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 23:23 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 09:46 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 00:03 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 10:45 +0300
                List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 17:23 +1000
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-20 20:54 +1200
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2015-05-20 04:08 -0700
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-20 14:42 -0400
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-21 11:06 +1200
                Re: List semantics [was Re: Slices time complexity] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-21 12:10 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity "Bartc" <bartc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-20 10:56 +0100
                Re: Slices time complexity Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 10:16 +0100
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-21 15:19 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-21 09:20 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity bartc <bart4858@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 06:34 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-05-21 17:50 +0100
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-22 03:16 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity bart4858@gmail.com - 2015-05-21 12:48 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 12:26 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 12:36 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 20:02 -0700
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 21:43 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 18:59 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 03:46 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 04:12 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-19 21:19 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 10:43 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-20 07:30 +0300
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 15:33 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 15:58 +1000
                Re: Slices time complexity Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 15:18 +0100
            Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 04:46 -0700
              Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 05:14 -0700
          Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 18:19 +1000
            Re: Slices time complexity Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 04:41 -0700
  Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-19 19:45 +1000
    Re: Slices time complexity Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 13:15 +0300
    Re: Slices time complexity Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 12:09 +0100
    Re: Slices time complexity "Bartc" <bartc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-19 15:52 +0100
      Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-20 03:07 +1000
        Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 03:19 +1000
        Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 20:51 +0100
          Re: Slices time complexity Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 14:33 -0600
          Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 06:35 +1000
          Re: Slices time complexity Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-20 21:47 +0100
            Re: Slices time complexity Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 22:23 +0100
          Re: Slices time complexity Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-21 17:35 +1000
            Re: Slices time complexity Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 18:25 +1000
    Re: Slices time complexity Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 09:15 -0600
    Re: Slices time complexity Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 22:51 +0300

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