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LISP AI folklore

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  LISP AI folklore Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net> - 2011-10-15 13:58 -0700
    Re: LISP AI folklore fortunatus <daniel.eliason@excite.com> - 2011-10-21 13:13 -0700
    Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-22 12:39 +0300
      Re: LISP AI folklore Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net> - 2011-10-22 12:31 -0700
        Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-23 11:17 +0300
          Re: LISP AI folklore Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net> - 2011-10-23 10:50 -0700
            Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-24 09:06 +0300
              Re: LISP AI folklore Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-10-24 12:01 +0200
                Re: LISP AI folklore Dr J R Stockton <reply1143@merlyn.demon.co.uk> - 2011-10-25 19:36 +0100
              Re: LISP AI folklore Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-24 17:16 +0000
                Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-24 20:55 +0300
                Re: LISP AI folklore "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2011-10-24 22:22 +0200
                  Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-25 04:56 +0300
                    Re: LISP AI folklore Tim Bradshaw <tfb@tfeb.org> - 2011-10-25 07:48 +0100
                      Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-25 12:28 +0300
                        Re: LISP AI folklore Andrew Reilly <areilly---@bigpond.net.au> - 2011-10-25 13:58 +0000
                          Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-26 08:03 +0300
                          Re: LISP AI folklore Tim Bradshaw <tfb@tfeb.org> - 2011-10-26 21:17 +0100
                            Re: LISP AI folklore Michael Moeller <mmoel@t-online.de> - 2011-10-28 17:13 +0200
                        Re: LISP AI folklore Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-25 14:42 +0000
                Re: LISP AI folklore BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-10-25 17:03 -0700
                Re: LISP AI folklore "Michael Haufe (TNO)" <tno@thenewobjective.com> - 2011-10-26 08:13 -0700
              Re: LISP AI folklore Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net> - 2011-10-24 11:54 -0700
                Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-25 05:12 +0300
                  Re: LISP AI folklore Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net> - 2011-10-25 11:44 -0700
                    Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-26 15:13 +0300
                      Re: LISP AI folklore Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net> - 2011-10-26 11:12 -0700
                        Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-27 15:52 +0300
                          Re: LISP AI folklore "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2011-10-27 15:08 +0200
                            Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-27 16:58 +0300
                              Re: LISP AI folklore "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2011-10-27 16:16 +0200
                              Re: LISP AI folklore Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-27 16:17 +0000
                                Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-28 00:32 +0300
                                  Re: LISP AI folklore Espen Vestre <espen@vestre.net> - 2011-10-28 00:03 +0200
                                    Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-28 06:26 +0300
                                      Re: LISP AI folklore Espen Vestre <espen@vestre.net> - 2011-10-28 09:32 +0200
                                        Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-11-03 16:30 +0200
                                  Re: LISP AI folklore Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-27 23:33 +0000
                                    Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-28 06:32 +0300
                                  Re: LISP AI folklore Antony <remove+spam_lisp.linux@gmail.com> - 2011-10-28 01:59 -0700
                                    Re: LISP AI folklore Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-28 19:59 +0000
                              Re: LISP AI folklore Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2011-10-27 17:31 +0100
                              Re: LISP AI folklore "Richard Cornford" <Richard@litotes.demon.co.uk> - 2011-10-27 18:42 +0100
                                Re: LISP AI folklore Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net> - 2011-10-27 12:39 -0700
                                  Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-28 00:39 +0300
                                    Re: LISP AI folklore Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net> - 2011-10-27 15:47 -0700
                                      Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-28 06:51 +0300
                                        Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-28 06:56 +0300
                                          Re: LISP AI folklore Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-10-28 14:54 +0200
                                            Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-28 16:04 +0300
                                        Re: LISP AI folklore Michael Moeller <mmoel@t-online.de> - 2011-10-29 15:41 +0200
                                          Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-11-03 16:39 +0200
                                        Re: LISP AI folklore Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-29 15:39 +0000
                                    Re: LISP AI folklore Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2011-11-11 10:34 +0100
                                      Re: LISP AI folklore Brad <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2011-11-11 11:45 -0800
                              Re: LISP AI folklore Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2011-11-11 10:30 +0100
                      Re: LISP AI folklore BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-10-26 11:21 -0700
                        Re: LISP AI folklore vandys@vsta.org - 2011-10-26 20:11 +0000
                          Re: LISP AI folklore "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-27 07:42 +1100
                          Re: LISP AI folklore BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-10-27 22:47 -0700
                            Re: LISP AI folklore John G Harris <john@nospam.demon.co.uk> - 2011-10-28 11:03 +0100
                              Re: LISP AI folklore BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-10-28 11:07 -0700
                                Re: LISP AI folklore John G Harris <john@nospam.demon.co.uk> - 2011-10-29 15:14 +0100
                                Re: LISP AI folklore rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) - 2011-10-30 19:43 -0500
                                  Re: LISP AI folklore Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2011-10-31 08:45 -0400
                        Re: LISP AI folklore Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> - 2011-10-28 18:40 +0300
                    Re: LISP AI folklore Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-26 19:30 +0000

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#6304 — LISP AI folklore

Those rent-a-coder programming wags over at

http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1318706528

have launched "Occupy Comp.Lang.Lisp"
with a thread unrighteously entitled,
"Ask John McCarthy anything".

Sorry, script kiddies, v.t.y. Mentifex has already
BTDT (been there, done that) with the following
exchange of views between Mentifex and His Nibs:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/04814d7fcec9d16e
asking Dr. McCarthy if he regrets pioneering AI.

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/5a20daf7c361275b
where the Piafesque answer is, "Je ne regrette rien."

Mentifex (Arthur)
--
http://aimind-i.com
http://mind.sourceforge.net/lisp.html
http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html
http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html

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#6326

Oh, my golly, it's been a long time hearing from Mentifex!  How are
you, ol' fella?

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#6327

15.10.2011 23:58, Mentifex kirjoitti:
> Those rent-a-coder programming wags over at
>
> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1318706528
>
> have launched "Occupy Comp.Lang.Lisp"
> with a thread unrighteously entitled,
> "Ask John McCarthy anything".
>
> Sorry, script kiddies, v.t.y. Mentifex has already
> BTDT (been there, done that) with the following
> exchange of views between Mentifex and His Nibs:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/04814d7fcec9d16e
> asking Dr. McCarthy if he regrets pioneering AI.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/5a20daf7c361275b
> where the Piafesque answer is, "Je ne regrette rien."
>
> Mentifex (Arthur)
> --
> http://aimind-i.com
> http://mind.sourceforge.net/lisp.html
> http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html
> http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html

It reads in the Sourceforge site:

"This weblog invites Lisp programmers to implement the main Alife Mind 
loop of the simplest artificial intelligence."

I might want to carry out some work for the Mentifex project, if that's 
what is desired above.  I have been more or less working with LISP since 
the 1980's.

The manuscript of my PhD thesis (with some dozen known errors) is in
http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/diss.pdf .  Oh yes, and the work needs to be 
carefully scrutinized for correct English.

(BTW in http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/FreeBASIC/ST.BAS there is there the 
famous Star Trek computer game in a modern version.)


kind regards, Mr Antti J Ylikoski
Helsinki, Finland, the EU

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#6328

On Oct 22, 2:39 am, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> 15.10.2011 23:58, Mentifex kirjoitti:
> [...]
> > Sorry, script kiddies, v.t.y. Mentifex has already
> > BTDT (been there, done that) with the following
> > exchange of views between Mentifex and His Nibs:
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/04814d7fcec9d16e
> > asking Dr. McCarthy if he regrets pioneering AI.
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/5a20daf7c361275b
> > where the Piafesque answer is, "Je ne regrette rien."
>
> > Mentifex (Arthur)
> > --
> > http://aimind-i.com
> > http://mind.sourceforge.net/lisp.html
> > http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html
> > http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html
>
> It reads in the Sourceforge site:
>
> "This weblog invites Lisp programmers to implement the
> main Alife Mind loop of the simplest artificial intelligence."
>
> I might want to carry out some work for the Mentifex project,
> if that's what is desired above.  I have been more or less
> working with LISP since the 1980's.

http://mind.sourceforge.net/aisteps.html
describes how to replicate in Lisp the
open-source AI Mind in Forth from

http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/mindforth.txt

and in JavaScript for MSIE from

http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html

and as replicated in Win32Forth at the

http://aimind-i.com website.

Be forewarned, please, that it is not easy
to recode the artificial Mind from Forth or
JavaScript into any other language, even
Lisp, the original McCarthy AI language.
>
> The manuscript of my PhD thesis
> (with some dozen known errors) is in
> http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/diss.pdf .  Oh yes,
> and the work needs to be carefully
> scrutinized for correct English.
>
> (BTW in http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/FreeBASIC/ST.BAS
> there is there the famous Star Trek computer game
> in a modern version.)
>
> kind regards, Mr Antti J Ylikoski
> Helsinki, Finland, the EU
>
And Fortunatus wrote upthread:
> Oh, my golly, it's been a long time hearing from Mentifex!
> How are you, ol' fella?
Just fine, Fortunatus, And how are you?

Cheers,

Arthur T. Murray (a.k.a. "Mentifex")
--
http://cyborg.blogspot.com/2011/01/aiapp.html
http://www.chatbots.org/ai_zone/viewthread/240/
http://code.google.com/p/mindforth/wiki/JsAiManual
http://groups.google.com/group/net.ai/msg/3a4429a7b26d40ef/

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#6329

22.10.2011 22:31, Mentifex kirjoitti:
> On Oct 22, 2:39 am, Antti J Ylikoski<antti.yliko...@aalto.fi>  wrote:
>> 15.10.2011 23:58, Mentifex kirjoitti:
>> [...]
>>> Sorry, script kiddies, v.t.y. Mentifex has already
>>> BTDT (been there, done that) with the following
>>> exchange of views between Mentifex and His Nibs:
>>
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/04814d7fcec9d16e
>>> asking Dr. McCarthy if he regrets pioneering AI.
>>
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/5a20daf7c361275b
>>> where the Piafesque answer is, "Je ne regrette rien."
>>
>>> Mentifex (Arthur)
>>> --
>>> http://aimind-i.com
>>> http://mind.sourceforge.net/lisp.html
>>> http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html
>>> http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html
>>
>> It reads in the Sourceforge site:
>>
>> "This weblog invites Lisp programmers to implement the
>> main Alife Mind loop of the simplest artificial intelligence."
>>
>> I might want to carry out some work for the Mentifex project,
>> if that's what is desired above.  I have been more or less
>> working with LISP since the 1980's.
>
> http://mind.sourceforge.net/aisteps.html
> describes how to replicate in Lisp the
> open-source AI Mind in Forth from
>
> http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/mindforth.txt
>
> and in JavaScript for MSIE from
>
> http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html
>
> and as replicated in Win32Forth at the
>
> http://aimind-i.com website.
>
> Be forewarned, please, that it is not easy
> to recode the artificial Mind from Forth or
> JavaScript into any other language, even
> Lisp, the original McCarthy AI language.
>>
>> The manuscript of my PhD thesis
>> (with some dozen known errors) is in
>> http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/diss.pdf .  Oh yes,
>> and the work needs to be carefully
>> scrutinized for correct English.
>>
>> (BTW in http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/FreeBASIC/ST.BAS
>> there is there the famous Star Trek computer game
>> in a modern version.)
>>
>> kind regards, Mr Antti J Ylikoski
>> Helsinki, Finland, the EU
>>
> And Fortunatus wrote upthread:
>> Oh, my golly, it's been a long time hearing from Mentifex!
>> How are you, ol' fella?
> Just fine, Fortunatus, And how are you?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Arthur T. Murray (a.k.a. "Mentifex")
> --
> http://cyborg.blogspot.com/2011/01/aiapp.html
> http://www.chatbots.org/ai_zone/viewthread/240/
> http://code.google.com/p/mindforth/wiki/JsAiManual
> http://groups.google.com/group/net.ai/msg/3a4429a7b26d40ef/

Thank you for the reminder about the difficulty of the task.  You have 
made me to the extent interested, that I ordered, from the Amazon.com, 
the AI4U book.

regards, Mr Antti J Ylikoski
Helsinki, Finland, the EU

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#6337

On Oct 23, 1:17 am, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> 22.10.2011 22:31, Mentifex kirjoitti:
> [...]
> > Be forewarned, please, that it is not easy
> > to recode the artificial Mind from Forth or
> > JavaScript into any other language, even
> > Lisp, the original McCarthy AI language.
[...]
> >> The manuscript of my PhD thesis
> >> (with some dozen known errors) is in
> >> http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/diss.pdf .  Oh yes,
> >> and the work needs to be carefully
> >> scrutinized for correct English.
>
> >> (BTW in http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/FreeBASIC/ST.BAS
> >> there is there the famous Star Trek computer game
> >> in a modern version.)
>
> >> kind regards, Mr Antti J Ylikoski
> >> Helsinki, Finland, the EU
>
>
> Thank you for the reminder about the difficulty
> of the task.  You have made me to the extent interested,
> that I ordered, from the Amazon.com, the AI4U book.
>
> regards, Mr Antti J Ylikoski
> Helsinki, Finland, the EU- Hide quoted text -
>
Thank you for ordering the AI4U book. It is
mainly valuable for mind-diagrams and for the
28 October 2002 JavaScript AI source code,
which has since been updated on-line at
http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html

Today I have programmed and uploaded the
http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/mindforth.txt
source code of the MindForth AI, which is
more advanced than the JavaScript AI. My
plan is to finish debugging the AI-Complete
Forth program and port it to JavaScript,
which is easier for Lisp coders to use.

Meanwhile I hope that we can carry out our
AI discussions right here on comp.lang.lisp
where other interested parties may join in.

Cheers,

Arthur T. Murray
--
http://search.ebay.com/ai4u
http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/307824.307853
http://www.chatbots.org/ai_zone/viewthread/240/
http://cyborg.blogspot.com/2009/11/mainloop.html

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#6341

23.10.2011 20:50, Mentifex kirjoitti:
> On Oct 23, 1:17 am, Antti J Ylikoski<antti.yliko...@aalto.fi>  wrote:
>> 22.10.2011 22:31, Mentifex kirjoitti:
>> [...]
>>> Be forewarned, please, that it is not easy
>>> to recode the artificial Mind from Forth or
>>> JavaScript into any other language, even
>>> Lisp, the original McCarthy AI language.
> [...]
>>>> The manuscript of my PhD thesis
>>>> (with some dozen known errors) is in
>>>> http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/diss.pdf .  Oh yes,
>>>> and the work needs to be carefully
>>>> scrutinized for correct English.
>>
>>>> (BTW in http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/FreeBASIC/ST.BAS
>>>> there is there the famous Star Trek computer game
>>>> in a modern version.)
>>
>>>> kind regards, Mr Antti J Ylikoski
>>>> Helsinki, Finland, the EU
>>
>>
>> Thank you for the reminder about the difficulty
>> of the task.  You have made me to the extent interested,
>> that I ordered, from the Amazon.com, the AI4U book.
>>
>> regards, Mr Antti J Ylikoski
>> Helsinki, Finland, the EU- Hide quoted text -
>>
> Thank you for ordering the AI4U book. It is
> mainly valuable for mind-diagrams and for the
> 28 October 2002 JavaScript AI source code,
> which has since been updated on-line at
> http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html
>
> Today I have programmed and uploaded the
> http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/mindforth.txt
> source code of the MindForth AI, which is
> more advanced than the JavaScript AI. My
> plan is to finish debugging the AI-Complete
> Forth program and port it to JavaScript,
> which is easier for Lisp coders to use.
>
> Meanwhile I hope that we can carry out our
> AI discussions right here on comp.lang.lisp
> where other interested parties may join in.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Arthur T. Murray
> --
> http://search.ebay.com/ai4u
> http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/307824.307853
> http://www.chatbots.org/ai_zone/viewthread/240/
> http://cyborg.blogspot.com/2009/11/mainloop.html
>

I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f.  I could not.

I get the error message that the FORTH that I have was made for a 32-bit 
operating system, whereas the computer I have has a 64-bit processor and 
a 64-bit operating system.

(I have an Acer ASPIRE 5742G, with the 64-bit Windows and a 64-bit Intel 
CORE i5 processor.)

yours, A. J. Y.

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#6342

Antti J Ylikoski wrote:

> Mentifex [wrote]:
>> [the usual nonsense]
> 
> I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f.  I could not.
> 
> I get the error message that the FORTH that I have was made for a 32-bit
> operating system, whereas the computer I have has a 64-bit processor and
> a 64-bit operating system.
> 
> (I have an Acer ASPIRE 5742G, with the 64-bit Windows and a 64-bit Intel
> CORE i5 processor.)

*Please* do not feed the troll.

<http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex_faq.html>


X-Post trimmed to Big8, F'up2 poster

PointedEars
-- 
Use any version of Microsoft Frontpage to create your site.
(This won't prevent people from viewing your source, but no one
will want to steal it.)
  -- from <http://www.vortex-webdesign.com/help/hidesource.htm> (404-comp.)

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#6388

In comp.lang.javascript message <3005692.SPkdTlGXAF@PointedEars.de>,
Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:01:42, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<PointedEars@web.de> posted:

>Antti J Ylikoski wrote:
>
>> Mentifex [wrote]:
>>> [the usual nonsense]
>>
>> I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f.  I could not.
>>
>> I get the error message that the FORTH that I have was made for a 32-bit
>> operating system, whereas the computer I have has a 64-bit processor and
>> a 64-bit operating system.
>>
>> (I have an Acer ASPIRE 5742G, with the 64-bit Windows and a 64-bit Intel
>> CORE i5 processor.)
>
>*Please* do not feed the troll.
>
><http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex_faq.html>
>
>
>X-Post trimmed to Big8,

That is bad manners, since it makes the thread visible to those whose
kill-rules had previously concealed its existence.

There was, of course, no need for you to respond, because you had
nothing useful to contribute.

Please learn and sing the reputed Siamese National Anthem.

-- 
 (c) John Stockton, nr London UK. replyYYWW merlyn demon co uk Turnpike 6.05.
   Web <http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html> -> Timo Salmi: Usenet Q&A.
   Web <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/news-use.htm> :  about usage of News.
 No Encoding. Quotes precede replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Mail no News.

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#6355

On 2011-10-24, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> wrote:
> I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f.  I could not.

Do you honestly think that some little Forth program is going to make some kind
of dent in the AI problem.

Maybe you secretly have faith or hope in the idea that the (hitherto unknown)
complexity required to make some kind of thinking machine is exaggerated and
removable.

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#6357

24.10.2011 20:16, Kaz Kylheku kirjoitti:
> On 2011-10-24, Antti J Ylikoski<antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi>  wrote:
>> I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f.  I could not.
>
> Do you honestly think that some little Forth program is going to make some kind
> of dent in the AI problem.
>

No, I don't.  My curiousness about the Mentifex is similar to what I 
would feel towards a new Prolog interpreter.  Not maybe big science, but 
in its manner interesting.

> Maybe you secretly have faith or hope in the idea that the (hitherto unknown)
> complexity required to make some kind of thinking machine is exaggerated and
> removable.

No.... I think I calculated that the information processing power of the 
human brain could be more than 10 to the 30th power bits per second. 
And there are 10 to the 11th power neurons in the human brain, every one 
of them typically are connected to thousands of other neurons.

That is the kind of complexity that one must create to make a 
human-level AI to my opinion.

Interpreted or even compiled FORTH doesn't quite cut it.

But I was interested in writing a CLOS-Mentifex, i. e. utilizing object 
oriented processing to the Mentifex problem.

yours, AJY



PS.


(setf antti-y (make-instance 'clos-mentifex-human
                  :length 192
                  :weight NIL
                  :name "Antti Juhani Ylikoski"
                  :birthdate "03-23-1960"))

(send 'antti-y :think "C:\\AI\\AI-problem.lisp")
;;; Send is a generic function which is here being used in the manner
;;; inspird by the Symbolics Zetalisp.

(send 'antti-y :eat 'chateaubriand)

(send 'antti-y :examine :left-leg)

that kind of thing.

Idem

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#6361

Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> writes:

> On 2011-10-24, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> wrote:
>> I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f.  I could not.
>
> Do you honestly think that some little Forth program is going to make some kind
> of dent in the AI problem.

He's not alone in believing that AI could be implemented with a small
program.

For example Monica Anderson http://monicasmind.com/
and even Ray Kurtzweil, who computes a maximum size for the brain
blueprints specified in our genes that's much smaller than a lot of
contemporaneous software.


http://www.kurzweilai.net/kurzweil-responds-dont-underestimate-the-singularity

    How do we get on the order of 100 trillion connections in the brain
    from only tens of millions of bytes of design information?


> Maybe you secretly have faith or hope in the idea that the (hitherto unknown)
> complexity required to make some kind of thinking machine is exaggerated and
> removable.

So it seems he's in good company.


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/
A bad day in () is better than a good day in {}.

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#6368

24.10.2011 23:22, Pascal J. Bourguignon kirjoitti:
> Kaz Kylheku<kaz@kylheku.com>  writes:
>
>> On 2011-10-24, Antti J Ylikoski<antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi>  wrote:
>>> I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f.  I could not.
>>
>> Do you honestly think that some little Forth program is going to make some kind
>> of dent in the AI problem.
>
> He's not alone in believing that AI could be implemented with a small
> program.
>
> For example Monica Anderson http://monicasmind.com/
> and even Ray Kurtzweil, who computes a maximum size for the brain
> blueprints specified in our genes that's much smaller than a lot of
> contemporaneous software.
>
>
> http://www.kurzweilai.net/kurzweil-responds-dont-underestimate-the-singularity
>
>      How do we get on the order of 100 trillion connections in the brain
>      from only tens of millions of bytes of design information?
>
>
>> Maybe you secretly have faith or hope in the idea that the (hitherto unknown)
>> complexity required to make some kind of thinking machine is exaggerated and
>> removable.
>
> So it seems he's in good company.
>
>

I don't really believe that the complexity to achieve the human-level AI 
would be exaggerated and removable.

Quite on the contrary, I believe that the complexity to create a 
human-level AI will be enormous, gigantic.  The CYC system (Lenat et 
al.) is a step in the right direction.

yours, A. J. Y.

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#6373

On 2011-10-25 02:56:22 +0100, Antti J Ylikoski said:

> Quite on the contrary, I believe that the complexity to create a 
> human-level AI will be enormous, gigantic.  The CYC system (Lenat et 
> al.) is a step in the right direction.

Well, as the person you're responding to pointed out, there's this 
awkward thing that that doesn't seem to be the case.  There's only so 
much information that is used to get a brain to the point where it can 
start to bootstrap itself.

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#6377

25.10.2011 9:48, Tim Bradshaw kirjoitti:
> On 2011-10-25 02:56:22 +0100, Antti J Ylikoski said:
>
>> Quite on the contrary, I believe that the complexity to create a
>> human-level AI will be enormous, gigantic. The CYC system (Lenat et
>> al.) is a step in the right direction.
>
> Well, as the person you're responding to pointed out, there's this
> awkward thing that that doesn't seem to be the case. There's only so
> much information that is used to get a brain to the point where it can
> start to bootstrap itself.
>

Has anyone attempted to make a cognitive system bootstrap itself by 
giving the system in question (very, very) large text corpora -- I 
wonder.  Of course their contents should be suitable for this purpose.


yours, A. J. Y.

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#6380

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:28:18 +0300, Antti J Ylikoski wrote:

> 25.10.2011 9:48, Tim Bradshaw kirjoitti:
>> On 2011-10-25 02:56:22 +0100, Antti J Ylikoski said:
>>
>>> Quite on the contrary, I believe that the complexity to create a
>>> human-level AI will be enormous, gigantic. The CYC system (Lenat et
>>> al.) is a step in the right direction.
>>
>> Well, as the person you're responding to pointed out, there's this
>> awkward thing that that doesn't seem to be the case. There's only so
>> much information that is used to get a brain to the point where it can
>> start to bootstrap itself.
>>
>>
> Has anyone attempted to make a cognitive system bootstrap itself by
> giving the system in question (very, very) large text corpora -- I
> wonder.  Of course their contents should be suitable for this purpose.

Why do you suppose that digestion of text corporea (even complete, if 
that were possible) would produce an inteligence that we would recognise 
as such?  What about real-time stimuli, needs and urges?  Body functions?

It's been said that one can't understand a motorcycle from the 
description in the manual, unless you have seen one in real life, first.

Cheers,

-- 
Andrew

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#6390

25.10.2011 16:58, Andrew Reilly kirjoitti:
> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:28:18 +0300, Antti J Ylikoski wrote:
>
>> 25.10.2011 9:48, Tim Bradshaw kirjoitti:
>>> On 2011-10-25 02:56:22 +0100, Antti J Ylikoski said:
>>>
>>>> Quite on the contrary, I believe that the complexity to create a
>>>> human-level AI will be enormous, gigantic. The CYC system (Lenat et
>>>> al.) is a step in the right direction.
>>>
>>> Well, as the person you're responding to pointed out, there's this
>>> awkward thing that that doesn't seem to be the case. There's only so
>>> much information that is used to get a brain to the point where it can
>>> start to bootstrap itself.
>>>
>>>
>> Has anyone attempted to make a cognitive system bootstrap itself by
>> giving the system in question (very, very) large text corpora -- I
>> wonder.  Of course their contents should be suitable for this purpose.
>
> Why do you suppose that digestion of text corporea (even complete, if
> that were possible) would produce an inteligence that we would recognise
> as such?  What about real-time stimuli, needs and urges?  Body functions?
>
> It's been said that one can't understand a motorcycle from the
> description in the manual, unless you have seen one in real life, first.
>
> Cheers,
>

That is a very good point to my opinion.  So we shall need situatedness, 
you think, don't you?

andy

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#6407

On 2011-10-25 14:58:25 +0100, Andrew Reilly said:

> Why do you suppose that digestion of text corporea (even complete, if
> that were possible) would produce an inteligence that we would recognise
> as such?

Because people who are interested in AI often think that the only 
important thing is the "intellectual" stuff they are interested in, and 
completely dismiss anything else as basically being a bit infra dig.  
This is, of course, one of the reasons they've not got very far.

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#6447

Am 10/26/2011 10:17 PM, schrieb Tim Bradshaw:
> On 2011-10-25 14:58:25 +0100, Andrew Reilly said:
>
>> Why do you suppose that digestion of text corporea (even complete, if
>> that were possible) would produce an inteligence that we would recognise
>> as such?
>
> Because people who are interested in AI often think that the only
> important thing is the "intellectual" stuff they are interested in, and
> completely dismiss anything else as basically being a bit infra dig.
> This is, of course, one of the reasons they've not got very far.
>
Considering things infra dig almost always is the wrong attitude. On
the other hand I'm afraid so called "AI" can be judged only on a
philosophical level. The real problem is not how to create "AI", it's
how to prevent people from worshipping computers.

Regards
Michael

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#6381

On 2011-10-25, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@aalto.fi> wrote:
> Has anyone attempted to make a cognitive system bootstrap itself by 
> giving the system in question (very, very) large text corpora -- I 
> wonder. 

Some academics try this approach on their students, with varying success.

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