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Groups > comp.lang.javascript > #8520 > unrolled thread

<h2> Odd Behaviour?

Started byGene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net>
First post2011-11-21 21:09 -0800
Last post2011-11-23 19:51 +0000
Articles 12 — 6 participants

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  <h2> Odd Behaviour? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-11-21 21:09 -0800
    Re: <h2> Odd Behaviour? "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2011-11-22 08:42 +0200
      Re: <h2> Odd Behaviour? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-11-22 14:37 -0800
        Re: <h2> Odd Behaviour? Doug Miller <doug_at_milmacdotcom@example.com> - 2011-11-22 18:06 -0500
        Re: <h2> Odd Behaviour? "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2011-11-23 01:12 +0200
          Re: <h2> Odd Behaviour? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-11-22 17:19 -0800
            Re: <h2> Odd Behaviour? Doug Miller <doug_at_milmacdotcom@example.com> - 2011-11-22 20:26 -0500
    Re: <h2> Odd Behaviour? Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2011-11-22 13:25 +0000
      Re: <h2> Odd Behaviour? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-11-22 14:41 -0800
        Re: <h2> Odd Behaviour? Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2011-11-23 01:25 +0000
          Re: <h2> Odd Behaviour? Swifty <steve.j.swift@gmail.com> - 2011-11-23 05:33 +0000
    Re: <h2> Odd Behaviour? Dr J R Stockton <reply1147@merlyn.demon.co.uk> - 2011-11-23 19:51 +0000

#8520 — <h2> Odd Behaviour?

FromGene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net>
Date2011-11-21 21:09 -0800
Subject<h2> Odd Behaviour?
Message-ID<gqamc7phm92nv5ln9je0cpbgr8f2tddr8l@4ax.com>
Dear HTMLers and JavaScripters:

[Note crossposting.]

     I do not know if my problem is HTML, JavaScript, my browser, my
text, though I doubt it is me.  But who knows?

     I have entered a text's code (HTML and JavaScript) which picks up
various pieces of browser data and writes them to another window
opened with
          whOut=open("","output");
The HTML is generated with a series of whOut.document.write() calls:
          <html><head><title>Output Window</title></head><body>
          <h2>Browser Properties</h2>
          *****value of navigator.appCodeName***** *****value of
navigotor.appName***** etc.<br>*****a couple more values*****
          <h2>Window Properties</h2>
          Frames: *****value of frames.length<br>

     The data displays like this:

Browser Properties
navigator.appCodeName value...

Window Properties

Frames: 0
...

     Note the blank line between the "Windows Properties" and "Frames"
lines.  Note that there is no blank line between the "Browser
Properties" and values lines.  Why not?

     If I enter static HTML approximating the lines, I get the blank
line.  If I generate static HTML approximating the lines, I get the
blank line.

     What am I missing?

     Is my text relying on browser-defined behaviour?  (I am wondering
if I should have a paragraph tag there.  The text does not have it,
but if I add it, it then works.  I would like to understand what is
going on though.)  Should I have the tag?  If so, a pointer as to why
would be appreciated.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#8521

From"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi>
Date2011-11-22 08:42 +0200
Message-ID<jafg8d$2pd$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#8520
2011-11-22 7:09, Gene Wirchenko wrote:

>       I do not know if my problem is HTML, JavaScript, my browser, my
> text, though I doubt it is me.  But who knows?

We would probably find it out rather soon if you gave us a URL.

>       Note the blank line between the "Windows Properties" and "Frames"
> lines.  Note that there is no blank line between the "Browser
> Properties" and values lines.  Why not?

That's impossible to say without seeing the actual code. And of course 
this means that we need the URL of the page that generates the HTML code 
client-side.

When you have an <h2> element in HTML followed by text content, there 
will normally be empty space, corresponding to one empty line or so, due 
to default styling (default margin-bottom for <h2>). Wrapping the text 
content in a <p> container normally has no impact on this, since by CSS 
rules, adjacent vertical margins "collapse" (i.e., the combined effect 
is the larger of the margins, not their sum).

The default behavior might be affected by various factors, such as a 
style sheet in the document and markup errors.

-- 
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

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#8541

FromGene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net>
Date2011-11-22 14:37 -0800
Message-ID<9g8oc7d651b5t8m3gvu2k7eokd2iasbo4p@4ax.com>
In reply to#8521
On Tue, 22 Nov 2011 08:42:22 +0200, "Jukka K. Korpela"
<jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> wrote:

>2011-11-22 7:09, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>
>>       I do not know if my problem is HTML, JavaScript, my browser, my
>> text, though I doubt it is me.  But who knows?
>
>We would probably find it out rather soon if you gave us a URL.

     There is no URL.  This is internal.

>>       Note the blank line between the "Windows Properties" and "Frames"
>> lines.  Note that there is no blank line between the "Browser
>> Properties" and values lines.  Why not?
>
>That's impossible to say without seeing the actual code. And of course 
>this means that we need the URL of the page that generates the HTML code 
>client-side.
>
>When you have an <h2> element in HTML followed by text content, there 
>will normally be empty space, corresponding to one empty line or so, due 
>to default styling (default margin-bottom for <h2>). Wrapping the text 
>content in a <p> container normally has no impact on this, since by CSS 
>rules, adjacent vertical margins "collapse" (i.e., the combined effect 
>is the larger of the margins, not their sum).
>
>The default behavior might be affected by various factors, such as a 
>style sheet in the document and markup errors.

     None.  None that I know of.  On the second, I have copied code
from the second to the first, and I still see the behaviour.  If I
reverse the calls to DescribeBrowser() and DescribeWindow(), I get the
same behaviour but now with the Window Properties, that is, the first
<h2> and following is the problem.

     The doctype is a default provided by Dreamweaver 8.  I do not
know which doctype I should use so I have gone with the default.

***** Start of Code *****
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">

<head>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=iso-8859-1" />
  <title>try6.html</title>

<script type="text/javascript">

whOut=open("","output");

function SetupWindow()
  {
  whOut.document.write("<html><head><title>Output
Window</title></head><body>");
  }

function DescribeBrowser()
  {
  whOut.document.write("<h2>Browser Properties</h2>");
  whOut.document.write(navigator.appCodeName+" ");
  whOut.document.write(navigator.appName+" ");
  whOut.document.write(navigator.appVersion+"<br>");
  whOut.document.write(navigator.mimeTypes.length+" MIME types are
defined. ");
  whOut.document.write(navigator.plugins.length+" plug-ins are
installed.</p>");
  }

function DescribeWindow()
  {
  whOut.document.write("<h2>Window Properties</h2>");
  whOut.document.write("Frames: "+frames.length+"<br>");
  whOut.document.write("URL: "+location.href+"<br>");
  }

function DescribeDocument()
  {
  DescribeLinks();
  DescribeForms();
  }

function DescribeLinks()
  {
  whOut.document.write("<h3>Links</h3>");
  whOut.document.write("This document contains
"+document.links.length+" links:<br>");
  for (var i=0; i<document.links.length; i++)
    whOut.document.write(document.links[i].href+"<br>");
  }

function DescribeForms()
  {
  whOut.document.write("<h3>Forms</h3>");
  for (var i=0; i<document.forms.length; i++)
    DescribeForm(i);
  }

function DescribeForm
 (
 n
 )
  {
  whOut.document.write("Form "+n+" has
"+document.forms[n].elements.length+" elements:");
  for (var i=0; i<document.forms[n].elements.length; i++)
    whOut.document.write(" "+document.forms[n].elements[i].name);
  whOut.document.write("<br>");
  }

function FinishWindow()
  {
  whOut.document.write(
   '<br><form><input type=button value="Close Window"
onclick="window.close()"></form>');
  whOut.document.write("</body></html>");
  }

</script>

</head>

<body>

<h1>Using Hierarchical Object Identifiers</h1>

<p><a href="http://www.dilbert.com/">Link to Dilbert</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.xkcd.com/">Link to XKCD</a></p>

<form>
  <p><input name=TextField1 Value="Enter text here!" /></p>
  <p><input type=checkbox name=CheckBox1 checked=checked />I'm
checkbox1.</p>
  <p><input type=checkbox name=CheckBox2 />I'm checkbox2.</p>
  <input type=submit name=SubmitButton value="Click here!" />
</form>

<script type="text/javascript">

SetupWindow();
DescribeBrowser();
DescribeWindow();
DescribeDocument();
FinishWindow();

</script>

</body>

</html>
***** End of Code *****

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#8543

FromDoug Miller <doug_at_milmacdotcom@example.com>
Date2011-11-22 18:06 -0500
Message-ID<jah9un$1r1$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#8541
On 11/22/2011 5:37 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2011 08:42:22 +0200, "Jukka K. Korpela"
> <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi>  wrote:
>
>> 2011-11-22 7:09, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>
>>>        I do not know if my problem is HTML, JavaScript, my browser, my
>>> text, though I doubt it is me.  But who knows?
>>
>> We would probably find it out rather soon if you gave us a URL.
>
>       There is no URL.  This is internal.

Then please post a copy on a free hosting site somewhere. It's *far* 
easier to diagnose problems from an actual working example than from a 
description.

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#8544

From"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi>
Date2011-11-23 01:12 +0200
Message-ID<jaha8d$3rt$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#8541
2011-11-23 0:37, Gene Wirchenko wrote:

>       There is no URL.  This is internal.

Then you should have set up a URL. It was more difficult to me to do 
that, since the code you posted here had some line breaks inserted by 
your newsreader and I had to fix the issues. But there it is:
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/test/odd.html

>>>        Note the blank line between the "Windows Properties" and "Frames"
>>> lines.  Note that there is no blank line between the "Browser
>>> Properties" and values lines.  Why not?

This seems to happen on IE only, and if you refresh the Output Window, a 
blank line gets inserted. The same happens if you do F12 on IE 9. So it 
seems to be an IE quirk. It does not happen if the content is presented 
as a static document.

And the quirk seems to vanish if you add <!doctype html> at the start of 
the generated document.

>       The doctype is a default provided by Dreamweaver 8.  I do not
> know which doctype I should use so I have gone with the default.

In your code, the _generated_ document has no doctype declaration.

-- 
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

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#8548

FromGene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net>
Date2011-11-22 17:19 -0800
Message-ID<hbioc71fuspphv98nijudifc22ipu5i8an@4ax.com>
In reply to#8544
On Wed, 23 Nov 2011 01:12:14 +0200, "Jukka K. Korpela"
<jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> wrote:

>2011-11-23 0:37, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>
>>       There is no URL.  This is internal.
>
>Then you should have set up a URL. It was more difficult to me to do 
>that, since the code you posted here had some line breaks inserted by 
>your newsreader and I had to fix the issues. But there it is:
>http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/test/odd.html

     It works for me.

>>>>        Note the blank line between the "Windows Properties" and "Frames"
>>>> lines.  Note that there is no blank line between the "Browser
>>>> Properties" and values lines.  Why not?
>
>This seems to happen on IE only, and if you refresh the Output Window, a 
>blank line gets inserted. The same happens if you do F12 on IE 9. So it 
>seems to be an IE quirk. It does not happen if the content is presented 
>as a static document.

     As I found.  I was wondering if it were something I had done or
not done.

>And the quirk seems to vanish if you add <!doctype html> at the start of 
>the generated document.

     Yes.

>>       The doctype is a default provided by Dreamweaver 8.  I do not
>> know which doctype I should use so I have gone with the default.
>
>In your code, the _generated_ document has no doctype declaration.

     I added one, the same as in the generating document, and then it
worked.

     Thank you.

Sincerely,

Gene Wrichenko

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#8550

FromDoug Miller <doug_at_milmacdotcom@example.com>
Date2011-11-22 20:26 -0500
Message-ID<jahi4p$k1m$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#8548
On 11/22/2011 8:19 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2011 01:12:14 +0200, "Jukka K. Korpela"
> <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi>  wrote:
>
>> 2011-11-23 0:37, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>
>>>        There is no URL.  This is internal.
>>
>> Then you should have set up a URL. It was more difficult to me to do
>> that, since the code you posted here had some line breaks inserted by
>> your newsreader and I had to fix the issues. But there it is:
>> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/test/odd.html
>
>       It works for me.

Which is one *more* reason why you should set up a publicly-accessible 
URL demonstrating the problem. Please remember that for the future.

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#8525

FromDenis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com>
Date2011-11-22 13:25 +0000
Message-ID<4ecba2ce$0$28722$a8266bb1@newsreader.readnews.com>
In reply to#8520
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 21:09:07 -0800, Gene Wirchenko wrote:

>      Note the blank line between the "Windows Properties" and "Frames"
> lines.  Note that there is no blank line between the "Browser
> Properties" and values lines.  Why not?

What does this look like:

http://www.sined.co.uk/tmp/wirchenko.htm

Note that I've wrapped all the text in enclosing block elements i.e. <p></
p>. It's a personal preference of mine that text be encapsulated in such 
block elements, and that they be closed, even if it's not strictly 
necessary according to the standards. Partly because the first book / 
tutorial on html that I read back in the mid 90's said it should be done 
thus, and whether it was right or wrong at the time, and regardless of 
the fact that it may not matter with some versions, that's still the way 
I do it.

Rgds

Denis McMahon

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#8542

FromGene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net>
Date2011-11-22 14:41 -0800
Message-ID<f69oc7ptj05ej573g48eflaogqmu06as43@4ax.com>
In reply to#8525
On 22 Nov 2011 13:25:34 GMT, Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 21:09:07 -0800, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>
>>      Note the blank line between the "Windows Properties" and "Frames"
>> lines.  Note that there is no blank line between the "Browser
>> Properties" and values lines.  Why not?
>
>What does this look like:
>
>http://www.sined.co.uk/tmp/wirchenko.htm
>
>Note that I've wrapped all the text in enclosing block elements i.e. <p></
>p>. It's a personal preference of mine that text be encapsulated in such 
>block elements, and that they be closed, even if it's not strictly 
>necessary according to the standards. Partly because the first book / 
>tutorial on html that I read back in the mid 90's said it should be done 
>thus, and whether it was right or wrong at the time, and regardless of 
>the fact that it may not matter with some versions, that's still the way 
>I do it.

     Yes, it works.  I already found that out.  I am wondering if <p>
tags are compulsory to be sure of correctness.  I am trying to avoid
cargo-cult programming.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#8549

FromDenis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com>
Date2011-11-23 01:25 +0000
Message-ID<4ecc4b7f$0$28629$a8266bb1@newsreader.readnews.com>
In reply to#8542
On Tue, 22 Nov 2011 14:41:06 -0800, Gene Wirchenko wrote:

> On 22 Nov 2011 13:25:34 GMT, Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>>On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 21:09:07 -0800, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>
>>>      Note the blank line between the "Windows Properties" and "Frames"
>>> lines.  Note that there is no blank line between the "Browser
>>> Properties" and values lines.  Why not?
>>
>>What does this look like:
>>
>>http://www.sined.co.uk/tmp/wirchenko.htm
>>
>>Note that I've wrapped all the text in enclosing block elements i.e.
>><p></ p>. It's a personal preference of mine that text be encapsulated
>>in such block elements, and that they be closed, even if it's not
>>strictly necessary according to the standards. Partly because the first
>>book / tutorial on html that I read back in the mid 90's said it should
>>be done thus, and whether it was right or wrong at the time, and
>>regardless of the fact that it may not matter with some versions, that's
>>still the way I do it.
> 
>      Yes, it works.  I already found that out.  I am wondering if <p>
> tags are compulsory to be sure of correctness.  I am trying to avoid
> cargo-cult programming.

It may be browser dependant, and depend on how each browser handles un-
encapsulated as opposed to encapsulated text wrt stylistic presentation - 
and that might further come down to user preferences.

It's old, but the following explanatory text from the HTML 3.2 
specification at <url:http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html32-19970114#body> 
might shed light:

"Most elements that can appear in the document body fall into one of two 
groups: block level elements which cause paragraph breaks, and text level 
elements which don't."

This distinction was carried over into section 7.5.3 of the 4.01 
Specification, albeit worded slightly differently:

"By default, block-level elements are formatted differently than inline 
elements. Generally, block-level elements begin on new lines, inline 
elements do not."

Of course, how exactly a browser interprets "begin on a new line" for 
some inline text after a preceding block element (eg a header) is a 
matter for the browser - some might insert a margin relating to the 
previous block element, some might consider that the preceding block 
element implies a new-line after regardless of what follows, others might 
not etc.

Rgds

Denis McMahon

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#8553

FromSwifty <steve.j.swift@gmail.com>
Date2011-11-23 05:33 +0000
Message-ID<l71pc7ppgdtpd2nk3u8fdq87dcbrpu00v7@4ax.com>
In reply to#8549
On 23 Nov 2011 01:25:19 GMT, Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Of course, how exactly a browser interprets "begin on a new line" for 
>some inline text after a preceding block element (eg a header) is a 
>matter for the browser

I recently read that Microsoft had generated an extensive test suite
for HTML5 and that the W3 group had accepted it as the de facto
benchmark for compliance. 

I don't know how true that is, but if so, the other browsers may end
up falling into line.

-- 
Steve Swift
http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html
http://www.ringers.org.uk

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#8579

FromDr J R Stockton <reply1147@merlyn.demon.co.uk>
Date2011-11-23 19:51 +0000
Message-ID<D3Mf0NFG7UzOFw52@invalid.uk.co.demon.merlyn.invalid>
In reply to#8520
In comp.lang.javascript message <gqamc7phm92nv5ln9je0cpbgr8f2tddr8l@4ax.
com>, Mon, 21 Nov 2011 21:09:07, Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> posted:

>
>     I do not know if my problem is HTML, JavaScript, my browser, my
>text, though I doubt it is me.  But who knows?
>

Certainly part at least of the problem is you.

You have not heeded the FAQ.

You may have pasted, but you have not posted, executable code, clear of
egregious error.

You have not named your browser and OS, including versions.

FYI: If, instead of using '+' to concatenate a literal string, ' + ' is
used, the code is easier to read.  Likewise ',' -> ', ', '=' -> ' = '.

-- 
 (c) John Stockton, nr London UK. replyYYWW merlyn demon co uk Turnpike 6.05.
   Web <http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html> -> Timo Salmi: Usenet Q&A.
   Web <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/news-use.htm> :  about usage of News.
 No Encoding. Quotes precede replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Mail no News.

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