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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #21601 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Ramon F Herrera <ramon@conexus.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2013-01-22 06:41 -0800 |
| Last post | 2013-01-27 23:33 -0800 |
| Articles | 6 on this page of 106 — 15 participants |
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The Revenge of the Geeks Ramon F Herrera <ramon@conexus.net> - 2013-01-22 06:41 -0800
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2013-01-22 14:55 +0000
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-22 22:29 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Ramon F Herrera <ramon@conexus.net> - 2013-01-22 06:58 -0800
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks joel garry <joel-garry@home.com> - 2013-01-22 08:54 -0800
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks cipher <cipher@nospamforme.org> - 2013-01-23 00:07 +0000
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 17:02 -0800
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-22 22:23 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-22 21:30 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-22 22:26 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks cipher <cipher@nospamforme.org> - 2013-01-24 00:51 +0000
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-23 20:01 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks cipher <cipher@nospamforme.org> - 2013-01-24 01:10 +0000
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-23 20:20 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks cipher <cipher@nospamforme.org> - 2013-01-24 12:15 +0000
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2013-01-24 07:37 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-01-24 12:55 +0000
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks cipher <cipher@nospamforme.org> - 2013-01-24 14:40 +0000
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2013-01-24 10:01 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 10:24 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 10:35 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 10:56 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Stuart <DerTopper@web.de> - 2013-01-30 23:54 +0100
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-22 22:32 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2013-01-22 21:33 -0800
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-23 00:21 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-23 05:25 -0400
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-23 04:35 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-23 20:17 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-23 22:47 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-24 06:03 -0400
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 04:44 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 11:10 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-01-24 10:49 +0000
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 11:06 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 16:10 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 17:30 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 17:44 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 17:49 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 17:58 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 21:10 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 22:15 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 22:31 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 23:57 -0800
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-25 22:05 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-25 23:31 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-26 07:25 -0400
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 12:40 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-26 21:34 -0400
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 22:06 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 09:12 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 14:47 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 16:23 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 15:24 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-26 21:47 -0400
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 22:11 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 22:54 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-27 07:46 -0400
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 12:47 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-27 19:40 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 21:16 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-29 22:05 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-30 03:22 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-30 20:12 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-31 02:22 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-02-01 20:12 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2013-02-04 14:09 -0800
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-02-04 18:28 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-02-05 01:57 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2013-02-05 09:55 -0800
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-27 19:37 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-01-27 10:38 +0000
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 13:09 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-27 19:47 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-27 19:45 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-26 07:26 -0400
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 13:22 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-26 12:57 -0800
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 16:15 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 22:04 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 00:38 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-27 19:35 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 21:04 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 16:34 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 17:04 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 22:14 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 01:38 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-01-27 13:13 +0000
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 13:59 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 22:17 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 23:06 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-25 22:10 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 00:31 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 19:42 -0800
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 23:22 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-25 00:03 -0800
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-25 02:41 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-24 19:31 -0400
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 11:30 -0800
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-23 20:13 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-24 15:31 -0400
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 14:37 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-23 20:09 -0500
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-01-24 04:30 -0800
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-25 02:45 -0600
Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-01-27 23:33 -0800
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| From | Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-24 15:31 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <C_fMs.82141$qb3.50670@newsfe25.iad> |
| In reply to | #21627 |
On 01/23/2013 09:13 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 1/23/2013 4:25 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >> On 01/23/2013 02:21 AM, BGB wrote: >>> On 1/22/2013 11:33 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote: >>>> In article >>>> Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great at it >>>> either. Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise >>>> edition" >>>> libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on >>>> streamlining the language itself. >>> >>> much agreed... >>> >>> the lack of "streamlining" of the core language is admittedly one of my >>> bigger complaints about Java at present. >>> >>> this is along with what few new features are added to the core language >>> (and to the JVM) are IMO far too often via ugly hacks. >> >> I'm not too worried about Java the language being close to stagnant, so >> long as library development is up to par. Because if the solution I've >> selected includes the JVM, then often Scala or Clojure are better >> choices for high-productivity coding. Myself I don't care if Java the >> language ever gets updated again - it's not important. The innovation >> shifted away from Java the language years ago; there are better JVM >> options now. > > I am a bit skeptical about that as a general approach. > > If the situation were that Java programs were almost always correct > but that what took time was writing all the boilerplate code, then > switching to Scala would be an obvious choice. > > But I don't see that. I see a large portion of Java developers not > mastering Java and switching them to Scala would be one big > fucking disaster. As a general approach I'd have to agree. OTOH for the unknown percentage of Java programmers who are actually competent, which is the group I had in mind, there are tasks that are best done in another JVM language. The interop for Clojure<=>Java and Scala<=>Java is pretty good. For the incompetent group they shouldn't be programming at all. >> So I would disagree with both you and Kevin that "streamlining" the core >> language is all that important. You can't do enough of it to core Java >> to make it worthwhile, without major changes. So why bother now? What's >> important actually *are* those "high cost, high complexity EE >> libraries", plus the later SE/EE-agnostic libraries like concurrency. >> >> 90% of developer productivity is achieved by adept and informed use of >> what other people have written: libraries. > > I completely agree. > > Arne > >
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-24 14:37 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <51018d71$0$289$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #21662 |
On 1/24/2013 2:31 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote: > On 01/23/2013 09:13 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> On 1/23/2013 4:25 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>> On 01/23/2013 02:21 AM, BGB wrote: >>>> On 1/22/2013 11:33 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote: >>>>> In article >>>>> Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great at it >>>>> either. Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise >>>>> edition" >>>>> libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on >>>>> streamlining the language itself. >>>> >>>> much agreed... >>>> >>>> the lack of "streamlining" of the core language is admittedly one of my >>>> bigger complaints about Java at present. >>>> >>>> this is along with what few new features are added to the core language >>>> (and to the JVM) are IMO far too often via ugly hacks. >>> >>> I'm not too worried about Java the language being close to stagnant, so >>> long as library development is up to par. Because if the solution I've >>> selected includes the JVM, then often Scala or Clojure are better >>> choices for high-productivity coding. Myself I don't care if Java the >>> language ever gets updated again - it's not important. The innovation >>> shifted away from Java the language years ago; there are better JVM >>> options now. >> >> I am a bit skeptical about that as a general approach. >> >> If the situation were that Java programs were almost always correct >> but that what took time was writing all the boilerplate code, then >> switching to Scala would be an obvious choice. >> >> But I don't see that. I see a large portion of Java developers not >> mastering Java and switching them to Scala would be one big >> fucking disaster. > > As a general approach I'd have to agree. OTOH for the unknown percentage > of Java programmers who are actually competent, which is the group I had > in mind, there are tasks that are best done in another JVM language. The > interop for Clojure<=>Java and Scala<=>Java is pretty good. > > For the incompetent group they shouldn't be programming at all. I agree. But that means nothing. Because they still do. Arne
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-23 20:09 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <510089c4$0$286$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #21612 |
On 1/23/2013 12:33 AM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote: > Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great at it > either. Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise edition" > libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on > streamlining the language itself. But those libraries often make a real big difference on the effort to write applications while language changes often has very little impact even though they make look cute. Arne
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| From | Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-24 04:30 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <vaa2g81m2u34m2evuj1d363ff4e23d9j6s@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #21601 |
On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 06:41:45 -0800 (PST), Ramon F Herrera <ramon@conexus.net> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : > "A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software with Java >updates" WinZip is one of the worst. You really have to keep your wits about you these days to avoiding installing junk. It is quite undignified of a product like Java to stoop that low. I hate it when companies buy out smaller companies. The products always deteriorate or disappear entirely. I would like to start pressuring everyone to put the name of the product and version on any download button. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com The first 90% of the code accounts for the first 90% of the development time. The remaining 10% of the code accounts for the other 90% of the development time. ~ Tom Cargill Ninety-ninety Law
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| From | BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-25 02:45 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <kdtgq9$45b$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #21641 |
On 1/24/2013 6:30 AM, Roedy Green wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 06:41:45 -0800 (PST), Ramon F Herrera > <ramon@conexus.net> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who > said : > >> "A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software with Java >> updates" > > WinZip is one of the worst. You really have to keep your wits about > you these days to avoiding installing junk. It is quite undignified of > a product like Java to stoop that low. I hate it when companies buy > out smaller companies. The products always deteriorate or disappear > entirely. > > I would like to start pressuring everyone to put the name of the > product and version on any download button. > (satire) but then how would the download sites make money, if they can't make every banner be a giant green "Download" button, with the actual download for the program being a little plain-text link somewhere near the bottom of the page somewhere?...
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| From | Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-01-27 23:33 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <e9acg8hm389c36tnt59pvg4f58ogoma05v@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #21701 |
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 02:45:40 -0600, BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >but then how would the download sites make money, if they can't make >every banner be a giant green "Download" button, with the actual >download for the program being a little plain-text link somewhere near >the bottom of the page somewhere?... ain't it the truth. I was so naive, that not long ago I would write webmasters warning them of the confusion they had created with "misplaced" unlabeled download buttons. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com The first 90% of the code accounts for the first 90% of the development time. The remaining 10% of the code accounts for the other 90% of the development time. ~ Tom Cargill Ninety-ninety Law
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