Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #21662

Re: The Revenge of the Geeks

From	Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.sys.mac.advocacy, comp.databases.oracle.server, comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: The Revenge of the Geeks
References	<f803af84-fa9a-456b-a140-5a2a3b3ae84b@k4g2000yqn.googlegroups.com> <50ff7620$0$80163$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net> <kdnvk2$i8v$1@news.albasani.net> <90OLs.55298$Ep5.21372@newsfe08.iad> <51008aa5$0$294$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
Message-ID	<C_fMs.82141$qb3.50670@newsfe25.iad> (permalink)
Organization	Public Usenet Newsgroup Access
Date	2013-01-24 15:31 -0400

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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On 01/23/2013 09:13 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 1/23/2013 4:25 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>> On 01/23/2013 02:21 AM, BGB wrote:
>>> On 1/22/2013 11:33 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
>>>> In article
>>>> Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great at it
>>>> either.  Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise
>>>> edition"
>>>> libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on
>>>> streamlining the language itself.
>>>
>>> much agreed...
>>>
>>> the lack of "streamlining" of the core language is admittedly one of my
>>> bigger complaints about Java at present.
>>>
>>> this is along with what few new features are added to the core language
>>> (and to the JVM) are IMO far too often via ugly hacks.
>>
>> I'm not too worried about Java the language being close to stagnant, so
>> long as library development is up to par. Because if the solution I've
>> selected includes the JVM, then often Scala or Clojure are better
>> choices for high-productivity coding. Myself I don't care if Java the
>> language ever gets updated again - it's not important. The innovation
>> shifted away from Java the language years ago; there are better JVM
>> options now.
>
> I am a bit skeptical about that as a general approach.
>
> If the situation were that Java programs were almost always correct
> but that what took time was writing all the boilerplate code, then
> switching to Scala would be an obvious choice.
>
> But I don't see that. I see a large portion of Java developers not
> mastering Java and switching them to Scala would be one big
> fucking disaster.

As a general approach I'd have to agree. OTOH for the unknown percentage 
of Java programmers who are actually competent, which is the group I had 
in mind, there are tasks that are best done in another JVM language. The 
interop for Clojure<=>Java and Scala<=>Java is pretty good.

For the incompetent group they shouldn't be programming at all.

>> So I would disagree with both you and Kevin that "streamlining" the core
>> language is all that important. You can't do enough of it to core Java
>> to make it worthwhile, without major changes. So why bother now? What's
>> important actually *are* those "high cost, high complexity EE
>> libraries", plus the later SE/EE-agnostic libraries like concurrency.
>>
>> 90% of developer productivity is achieved by adept and informed use of
>> what other people have written: libraries.
>
> I completely agree.
>
> Arne
>
>

Thread

The Revenge of the Geeks Ramon F Herrera <ramon@conexus.net> - 2013-01-22 06:41 -0800
  Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2013-01-22 14:55 +0000
    Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-22 22:29 -0500
  Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Ramon F Herrera <ramon@conexus.net> - 2013-01-22 06:58 -0800
  Re: The Revenge of the Geeks joel garry <joel-garry@home.com> - 2013-01-22 08:54 -0800
    Re: The Revenge of the Geeks cipher <cipher@nospamforme.org> - 2013-01-23 00:07 +0000
      Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 17:02 -0800
        Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-22 22:23 -0500
        Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-22 21:30 -0600
      Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-22 22:26 -0500
        Re: The Revenge of the Geeks cipher <cipher@nospamforme.org> - 2013-01-24 00:51 +0000
          Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-23 20:01 -0500
            Re: The Revenge of the Geeks cipher <cipher@nospamforme.org> - 2013-01-24 01:10 +0000
              Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-23 20:20 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks cipher <cipher@nospamforme.org> - 2013-01-24 12:15 +0000
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2013-01-24 07:37 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-01-24 12:55 +0000
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks cipher <cipher@nospamforme.org> - 2013-01-24 14:40 +0000
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2013-01-24 10:01 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 10:24 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 10:35 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 10:56 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Stuart <DerTopper@web.de> - 2013-01-30 23:54 +0100
  Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-22 22:32 -0500
  Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2013-01-22 21:33 -0800
    Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-23 00:21 -0600
      Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-23 05:25 -0400
        Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-23 04:35 -0600
          Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-23 20:17 -0500
            Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-23 22:47 -0600
              Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-24 06:03 -0400
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 04:44 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 11:10 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-01-24 10:49 +0000
              Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 11:06 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 16:10 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 17:30 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 17:44 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 17:49 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 17:58 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 21:10 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 22:15 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 22:31 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 23:57 -0800
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-25 22:05 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-25 23:31 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-26 07:25 -0400
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 12:40 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-26 21:34 -0400
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 22:06 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 09:12 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 14:47 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 16:23 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 15:24 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-26 21:47 -0400
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 22:11 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 22:54 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-27 07:46 -0400
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 12:47 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-27 19:40 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 21:16 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-29 22:05 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-30 03:22 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-30 20:12 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-31 02:22 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-02-01 20:12 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2013-02-04 14:09 -0800
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-02-04 18:28 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-02-05 01:57 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2013-02-05 09:55 -0800
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-27 19:37 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-01-27 10:38 +0000
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 13:09 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-27 19:47 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-27 19:45 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-26 07:26 -0400
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 13:22 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-26 12:57 -0800
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 16:15 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 22:04 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 00:38 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-27 19:35 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 21:04 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 16:34 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 17:04 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-26 22:14 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 01:38 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-01-27 13:13 +0000
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-27 13:59 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 22:17 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 23:06 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-25 22:10 -0500
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-26 00:31 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 19:42 -0800
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-24 23:22 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-25 00:03 -0800
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-25 02:41 -0600
                Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-24 19:31 -0400
              Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 11:30 -0800
        Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-23 20:13 -0500
          Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-24 15:31 -0400
            Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-24 14:37 -0500
    Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-23 20:09 -0500
  Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-01-24 04:30 -0800
    Re: The Revenge of the Geeks BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2013-01-25 02:45 -0600
      Re: The Revenge of the Geeks Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-01-27 23:33 -0800

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