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applets

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  applets bob smith <bob@coolfone.comze.com> - 2012-06-13 07:54 -0700
    Re: applets Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-06-13 08:07 -0700
    Re: applets markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-13 08:30 -0700
      Re: applets Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-06-13 21:43 -0700
      Re: applets Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-17 18:40 -0400
      Re: applets Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-17 18:44 -0400
    Re: applets "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> - 2012-06-14 01:39 -0500
    Re: applets Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-06-14 01:00 -0700
      Re: applets Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-06-14 03:08 -0700
        Re: applets Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-06-16 17:28 -0700
      Re: applets David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-06-14 10:09 -0400
        Re: applets Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-06-16 17:32 -0700
    Re: applets Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-17 18:38 -0400

#15242 — applets

Do any serious Java developers still work on applets?  Or are they pretty much dead?

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#15243

On 6/13/2012 7:54 AM, bob smith wrote:
> Do any serious Java developers still work on applets?  Or are they pretty much dead?

I don't know if they are serious but there are still lots of Java 
Applets being created and deployed.

-- 

Knute Johnson

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#15246

On 6/13/2012 7:54 AM, bob smith wrote:
> Do any serious Java developers still work on applets?  Or are they
> pretty much dead?


I like Knute's answer.  Applets seem to be used occasionally, where 
nothing else will do.  However it seems to me the deployment to users 
mechanism is still kinda clunky, and therefore applets tend to be 
avoided.  Applets are still heavyweight relative to alternatives like 
Flash, HTML5 and JavaScript.  They boot more slowly, and therefore are 
perceived to provide a lesser user experience.

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#15267

On 6/13/2012 9:09 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> markspace <-@.> writes:
>> However it seems to me the deployment to users mechanism is
>> still kinda clunky, and therefore applets tend to be avoided.
>
>    I never understood the decline of applets. Last time I
>    asked, I was told IIRC that the problems had to do with
>    upward or downward compatibility. (Possibly some old applets
>    were not running with newer Java versions?) But IIRC no one
>    did mention the deployment. So I get the impression that it
>    is not really obvious what the actual problem with applets
>    is. Recently some security problems with Java made it into
>    the press. So nowadays one might even give this as a reason.
>
>    To me, the problems are more in the realm of HTML
>    integration: Applets usually have a fixed size like an
>    image, while HTML documents are free size. People want to
>    script the HTML doc model and while this is possible with a
>    Java applet using a JavaScript interface layer it is not
>    directly supported. Java Applets instead should have direct
>    support for a HTML document as their primary user interface,
>    even to the point where for output of graphics embedded
>    pictures (for example GIF images) are created on the fly.
>
>    On could still start to do this today with HTML 5. All
>    that is done today with JavaScript should also be possible
>    with Java.
>

Isn't that a lot of the stuff that JavaFX is supposed to do?

-- 

Knute Johnson

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#15365

On 6/13/2012 11:30 AM, markspace wrote:
>  However it seems to me the deployment to users
> mechanism is still kinda clunky, and therefore applets tend to be
> avoided.  Applets are still heavyweight relative to alternatives like
> Flash, HTML5 and JavaScript.  They boot more slowly, and therefore are
> perceived to provide a lesser user experience.

That is certainly a common perception.

But I am not convinced that there is so much reality behind it.

Arne

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#15366

On 6/13/2012 12:09 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> markspace <-@.> writes:
>> However it seems to me the deployment to users mechanism is
>> still kinda clunky, and therefore applets tend to be avoided.
>
>    I never understood the decline of applets. Last time I
>    asked, I was told IIRC that the problems had to do with
>    upward or downward compatibility. (Possibly some old applets
>    were not running with newer Java versions?) But IIRC no one
>    did mention the deployment. So I get the impression that it
>    is not really obvious what the actual problem with applets
>    is. Recently some security problems with Java made it into
>    the press. So nowadays one might even give this as a reason.
>
>    To me, the problems are more in the realm of HTML
>    integration: Applets usually have a fixed size like an
>    image, while HTML documents are free size. People want to
>    script the HTML doc model and while this is possible with a
>    Java applet using a JavaScript interface layer it is not
>    directly supported. Java Applets instead should have direct
>    support for a HTML document as their primary user interface,
>    even to the point where for output of graphics embedded
>    pictures (for example GIF images) are created on the fly.
>
>    On could still start to do this today with HTML 5. All
>    that is done today with JavaScript should also be possible
>    with Java.

I think the reasons are:
1) Fashion - Java applets are not fashionable today.
2) Lack of need today:
      - for simple menus etc. HTML/CSS/JS works fine so no need for
        a plugin at all
      - for fancy graphical stuff Flash/Flex and SL are simply considered
        better (JavaFX came very late)
    so that laves relative little for Java applets

Arne

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#15268

On 6/13/2012 9:54 AM, bob smith wrote:
> Do any serious Java developers still work on applets?  Or are they pretty much dead?

I now use Mathematica to make applets.

These are written in Mathematica though, not Java.

They run in the browser, and need a plugin installed (like
with Java).  there are now 8,000 applets at this site to run

http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/

I've written applets in Java, and I found that it is easier/faster
for me to make an applet using Mathematica than with Java.

There is really limited options for make applets that
run in the browser. The ones I know about are:

1. Java applets
2. Mathematica
3. Flash
4. HTML5-Javascript
5. JavaFx
6. Microsoft Silverlight

--Nasser

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#15270

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:54:47 -0700 (PDT), bob smith
<bob@coolfone.comze.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
who said :

>Do any serious Java developers still work on applets?  Or are they pretty much dead?

The advantage is people can play with them without any commitment to
install.  They require no skill to use.  You just start clicking. You
would be amazed how many people who call themselves Java programmers
cannot unzip a jar and run it.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
Controlling complexity is the essence of computer programming.
~ Brian W. Kernighan 1942-01-01
.

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#15272

Roedy Green wrote:
> bob smith wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>> Do any serious Java developers still work on applets?  Or are they pretty much dead?
>
> The advantage is people can play with them without any commitment to
> install.  They require no skill to use.  You just start clicking. You
> would be amazed how many people who call themselves Java programmers
> cannot unzip a jar and run it.

Or run it without unzipping it.

-- 
Lew
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg

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#15340

On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 03:08:41 -0700, Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> wrote,
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>> cannot unzip a jar and run it.
>
>Or run it without unzipping it.

what I meant was unzip a bundle including an executable jar.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
Controlling complexity is the essence of computer programming.
~ Brian W. Kernighan 1942-01-01
.

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#15278

On 14/06/2012 4:00 AM, Roedy Green wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:54:47 -0700 (PDT), bob smith
> <bob@coolfone.comze.com>  wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
> who said :
>> Do any serious Java developers still work on applets?  Or are they pretty much dead?
>
> The advantage is people can play with them without any commitment to
> install.  They require no skill to use.  You just start clicking.

You can "just start clicking" with Java Web Start as well, as long as 
you've installed a Java implementation. ISTR that Sun introduced JWS in 
part because browser implementations of Java (as used by applets) 
weren't keeping up with changes and at the time in particular often 
didn't have any of the javax.* packages.

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#15341

On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:09:27 -0400, David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>
>You can "just start clicking" with Java Web Start as well, as long as 
>you've installed a Java implementation. ISTR that Sun introduced JWS in 
>part because browser implementations of Java (as used by applets) 
>weren't keeping up with changes and at the time in particular often 
>didn't have any of the javax.* packages.

The fool JRE does not install JWS properly, putting links to javaw.exe
in the browsers and setting up an association.  This is a roadblock to
newbie use.

The other problem is the user has to wait while a new JVM loads.

The big advantage is you run outside the browser.  So it works without
interference or tweaking. It also slickly handles JNI for you, even
better than a standalone app. It also handles auto-updates.

I wish Oracle would fix up that install problem, then JWS could really
take off.

-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
Controlling complexity is the essence of computer programming.
~ Brian W. Kernighan 1942-01-01
.

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#15364

On 6/13/2012 10:54 AM, bob smith wrote:
> Do any serious Java developers still work on applets?  Or are they pretty much dead?

Applets are still used but are relative rare.

Modern HTML/CSS/JS can do a lot.

If that is not sufficient then both Flash/Flex and Silverlight
seems to be preferred by most.

But if you like Java, then applets is certainly still a possibility.

And in fact they may survive both Flash/Flex and Silverlight as
Adobe and MS are focusing on HTML5 now.

Arne

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