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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #13793 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2012-04-22 16:15 +0100 |
| Last post | 2012-09-02 14:04 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 137 — 22 participants |
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How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-22 16:15 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-04-22 11:18 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2012-04-22 16:22 +0000
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 23:22 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 16:44 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 15:03 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-24 11:24 -0300
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-24 09:07 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-24 14:07 -0300
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-25 09:10 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-25 21:04 -0300
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:29 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-29 20:32 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-30 07:09 -0300
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-30 22:16 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-01 10:19 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-01 18:56 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-01 19:15 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 18:45 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 09:58 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 21:10 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-25 09:13 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:34 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-29 20:35 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-30 22:09 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-01 10:23 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-01 19:03 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-05-01 16:18 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-01 19:33 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-01 19:21 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 18:49 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 00:06 +0000
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 00:06 +0000
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 00:07 +0000
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 20:26 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 11:38 +0000
Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-05-06 08:41 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 10:24 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 10:18 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-05-06 00:06 +0000
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-05-07 10:12 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 21:08 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-04-25 00:57 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 13:48 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 23:17 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-23 20:55 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-04-22 08:41 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-22 12:36 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-04-22 11:35 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-22 17:21 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-22 16:15 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-22 19:45 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-22 20:28 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> - 2012-04-22 23:57 -0500
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-23 02:06 -0500
Re: How to develop without an IDE? "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> - 2012-04-23 02:09 -0500
Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-23 01:26 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-04-23 04:36 -0500
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-04-23 21:11 +0200
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 23:15 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-23 15:44 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-23 21:15 -0300
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 02:33 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 18:59 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 16:43 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 14:44 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-04-24 20:23 +0000
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-25 09:18 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:42 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-04-24 08:38 +0200
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 14:20 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 14:20 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 13:36 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 02:09 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-04-25 07:55 +0200
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 12:18 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:37 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-04-25 01:01 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-25 09:20 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:50 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 21:17 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 23:27 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 11:16 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-29 14:33 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-29 22:48 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-30 22:03 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-30 22:59 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-01 19:09 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 11:01 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 12:21 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-05-02 14:20 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-05-02 14:41 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-02 16:52 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-05-05 18:31 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-05-06 14:19 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-05-07 11:16 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-22 10:17 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-04-22 19:11 +0000
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 02:43 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2012-04-22 23:32 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-04-23 00:33 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-04-23 10:25 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 23:38 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-23 15:50 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-04-23 16:21 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-23 22:09 -0300
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 13:53 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 08:12 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-24 09:16 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 08:14 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 23:11 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-04-29 13:21 +0200
Re: How to develop without an IDE? JussiJ <jussij@zeusedit.com> - 2012-05-07 07:19 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 16:46 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 12:47 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:59 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-24 09:20 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-23 21:00 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 12:36 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 20:54 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-04-25 12:05 +0100
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 23:07 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-04-24 09:13 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-04-24 14:15 -0300
Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-24 12:59 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 14:24 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-04-24 14:59 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? markspace <-@.> - 2012-04-24 17:19 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-24 17:12 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-24 21:00 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2012-04-26 02:17 +1000
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-04-28 22:24 -0400
Re: How to develop without an IDE? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-24 10:02 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? sony.gupta32@yahoo.co.uk - 2012-08-30 02:29 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-08-30 19:58 +0000
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-08-30 13:16 -0700
Re: How to develop without an IDE? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-09-02 14:04 -0700
Page 2 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 Next page →
| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-04-24 21:10 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <4f974f17$0$287$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #13855 |
On 4/24/2012 12:07 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: > On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:24:14 -0300, Arved Sandstrom > <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> wrote: > > [snip] > >> I'll tell you what no Java developer's career depends on: being able to >> write a makefile to build a Java project. > > Does someone's career depend on being able to use Ant? If it > does, then why can he not simply pick it up when he needs it? > > I prefer to learn to use tools that will be of use to me in > preference to those that only might. There is so much software out > there that I have to budget my learning time to items which will give > me a return. It is almost 100% sure that a developer will need to work with Ant within a reasonable time frame (like 5 years). But it is only 1/3 of the problem that is the actual lack of Ant skills - the 2/3 of the problem is the attitude. Arne
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| From | Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-04-25 09:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <0g8gp71vfcf9pmstr366olur7ealditdpn@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #13885 |
On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 21:10:46 -0400, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
wrote:
[snip]
>But it is only 1/3 of the problem that is the actual lack
>of Ant skills - the 2/3 of the problem is the attitude.
Yes.
I am highly-resistant to flavour of the <time period>. If I have
something that is working well for me, I am unlikely to change short
of a compelling reason. If there is good reason, I will try new
things. There is so much noise though of so many tools that I
generally need a reason before proceeding, and I am very likely to
drop something cold if it turns into a time-waster.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-04-28 22:34 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <4f9ca8b2$0$294$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #13906 |
On 4/25/2012 12:13 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: > On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 21:10:46 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk> > wrote: > > [snip] > >> But it is only 1/3 of the problem that is the actual lack >> of Ant skills - the 2/3 of the problem is the attitude. > > Yes. > > I am highly-resistant to flavour of the<time period>. Ant has been widely used for over a decade! > If I have > something that is working well for me, I am unlikely to change short > of a compelling reason. You need to have the skills in demand. If you want to work in the business - if you are coding as a hobby or part of an entirely different profession, then it may not matter much. > If there is good reason, I will try new > things. There is so much noise though of so many tools that I > generally need a reason before proceeding, and I am very likely to > drop something cold if it turns into a time-waster. There may be a lot of noise. But if you actually read some of it you would find out that ant is used by about 50% of Java projects for builds (Maven takes the majority of the rest). That is fact. Arne
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| From | Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-04-29 20:35 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <bu1sp7dk30r279pfg1ujb2ovsevo8uot21@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #13996 |
On Sat, 28 Apr 2012 22:34:24 -0400, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
wrote:
>On 4/25/2012 12:13 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 21:10:46 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> But it is only 1/3 of the problem that is the actual lack
>>> of Ant skills - the 2/3 of the problem is the attitude.
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> I am highly-resistant to flavour of the<time period>.
>
>Ant has been widely used for over a decade!
I was discussing the general case. I have seen too many cases of
"This is the greatest tool since ..." and when I try it, it fails on
very simple cases of mine.
>> If I have
>> something that is working well for me, I am unlikely to change short
>> of a compelling reason.
>
>You need to have the skills in demand. If you want to work in
>the business - if you are coding as a hobby or part of an entirely
>different profession, then it may not matter much.
True, but I am not going to drop everything because something
else comes out.
>> If there is good reason, I will try new
>> things. There is so much noise though of so many tools that I
>> generally need a reason before proceeding, and I am very likely to
>> drop something cold if it turns into a time-waster.
>
>There may be a lot of noise.
"may"?
>But if you actually read some of it you would find out that
>ant is used by about 50% of Java projects for builds (Maven
>takes the majority of the rest).
Fine. I am not coding in Java anymore, because I found that it
did not match what I needed. I do like the discussions such as this
one.
>That is fact.
I am not challenging it. I still decide what I use though.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-04-30 22:09 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <4f9f45c6$0$287$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #14047 |
On 4/29/2012 11:35 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: > On Sat, 28 Apr 2012 22:34:24 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk> > wrote: > >> On 4/25/2012 12:13 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 21:10:46 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk> >>> wrote: >>> >>> [snip] >>> >>>> But it is only 1/3 of the problem that is the actual lack >>>> of Ant skills - the 2/3 of the problem is the attitude. >>> >>> Yes. >>> >>> I am highly-resistant to flavour of the<time period>. >> >> Ant has been widely used for over a decade! > > I was discussing the general case. I have seen too many cases of > "This is the greatest tool since ..." and when I try it, it fails on > very simple cases of mine. Well the thread was about build tools. And the argument were to use ant. I don't think anyone has claimed a need to learn any tool under the SUN. > >>> If I have >>> something that is working well for me, I am unlikely to change short >>> of a compelling reason. >> >> You need to have the skills in demand. If you want to work in >> the business - if you are coding as a hobby or part of an entirely >> different profession, then it may not matter much. > > True, but I am not going to drop everything because something > else comes out. As explained then Java build tools is a relative stable market. >>> If there is good reason, I will try new >>> things. There is so much noise though of so many tools that I >>> generally need a reason before proceeding, and I am very likely to >>> drop something cold if it turns into a time-waster. >> >> There may be a lot of noise. > > "may"? > >> But if you actually read some of it you would find out that >> ant is used by about 50% of Java projects for builds (Maven >> takes the majority of the rest). > > Fine. I am not coding in Java anymore, because I found that it > did not match what I needed. I do like the discussions such as this > one. > >> That is fact. > > I am not challenging it. I still decide what I use though. Obviously. The point people were trying to make is that you will not look good at the Java job market if you don't know ant - especially not with arguments like some of those posted here. Arne
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| From | Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-01 10:23 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4q60q7lep8joh4mqdu809bd73266tcha4j@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #14066 |
On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:09:09 -0400, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
wrote:
>On 4/29/2012 11:35 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Apr 2012 22:34:24 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/25/2012 12:13 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 21:10:46 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>>> But it is only 1/3 of the problem that is the actual lack
>>>>> of Ant skills - the 2/3 of the problem is the attitude.
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>>
>>>> I am highly-resistant to flavour of the<time period>.
>>>
>>> Ant has been widely used for over a decade!
>>
>> I was discussing the general case. I have seen too many cases of
>> "This is the greatest tool since ..." and when I try it, it fails on
>> very simple cases of mine.
>
>Well the thread was about build tools.
>
>And the argument were to use ant.
>
>I don't think anyone has claimed a need to learn any tool under
>the SUN.
Of course not. Everyone and his dog says to use his tool. The
collective of all that yammering is one should use every tool under
the sun.
[snip]
>The point people were trying to make is that you will not look
>good at the Java job market if you don't know ant - especially
>not with arguments like some of those posted here.
To your first sentence: Yes, I understand that not knowing
certain things can have an effect on getting jobs, but to judge
someone totally or substantially on whether he knows one particular
tool goes way too far.
To your second sentence: Nice smear.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-01 19:03 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <4fa06bb6$0$291$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #14083 |
On 5/1/2012 1:23 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: > On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:09:09 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk> > wrote: > >> On 4/29/2012 11:35 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >>> On Sat, 28 Apr 2012 22:34:24 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 4/25/2012 12:13 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 21:10:46 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> [snip] >>>>> >>>>>> But it is only 1/3 of the problem that is the actual lack >>>>>> of Ant skills - the 2/3 of the problem is the attitude. >>>>> >>>>> Yes. >>>>> >>>>> I am highly-resistant to flavour of the<time period>. >>>> >>>> Ant has been widely used for over a decade! >>> >>> I was discussing the general case. I have seen too many cases of >>> "This is the greatest tool since ..." and when I try it, it fails on >>> very simple cases of mine. >> >> Well the thread was about build tools. >> >> And the argument were to use ant. >> >> I don't think anyone has claimed a need to learn any tool under >> the SUN. > > Of course not. Everyone and his dog says to use his tool. The > collective of all that yammering is one should use every tool under > the sun. Not at all. As I have tried to explain several times now, then one should utilize other developers experience. If a huge portion of the Java developer community is using tool XYZ, then there must be something good about that tool. If developer NN suggest tool ABC, but nobody else are using that tool, then it is most likly not worth spending time on. >> The point people were trying to make is that you will not look >> good at the Java job market if you don't know ant - especially >> not with arguments like some of those posted here. > > To your first sentence: Yes, I understand that not knowing > certain things can have an effect on getting jobs, but to judge > someone totally or substantially on whether he knows one particular > tool goes way too far. Unless the applicant can demonstrate good knowledge of all other relevant tool, then not knowing one of the basic tools like ant will cause the interviewer to assume that there are many other holes in the applicants toolbox. Arne
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| From | Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-01 16:18 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <gb_nr.17948$DB1.3689@newsfe03.iad> |
| In reply to | #14109 |
On 5/1/12 4:03 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 5/1/2012 1:23 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:09:09 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk> >> wrote: >> Everyone and his dog says to use his tool. The >> collective of all that yammering is one should use every tool under >> the sun. Most people say "Use ant" or "Use maven", many say "Use ant or maven". Look at averages and statistics, not every response. > > Not at all. > > As I have tried to explain several times now, then one should > utilize other developers experience. If a huge portion of the > Java developer community is using tool XYZ, then there must be > something good about that tool. If developer NN suggest tool ABC, > but nobody else are using that tool, then it is most likly > not worth spending time on. With the exception that ABC may be a new tool that hasn't found adoption yet, but may in fact be better on average than XYZ. Still, your point mostly stands.
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-01 19:33 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <4fa072b3$0$291$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #14111 |
On 5/1/2012 7:18 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote: > On 5/1/12 4:03 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> On 5/1/2012 1:23 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >>> On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:09:09 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk> >>> wrote: >>> Everyone and his dog says to use his tool. The >>> collective of all that yammering is one should use every tool under >>> the sun. > Most people say "Use ant" or "Use maven", many say "Use ant or maven". > Look at averages and statistics, not every response. >> >> Not at all. >> >> As I have tried to explain several times now, then one should >> utilize other developers experience. If a huge portion of the >> Java developer community is using tool XYZ, then there must be >> something good about that tool. If developer NN suggest tool ABC, >> but nobody else are using that tool, then it is most likly >> not worth spending time on. > > With the exception that ABC may be a new tool that hasn't found adoption > yet, but may in fact be better on average than XYZ. Still, your point > mostly stands. Occasionally new good stuff show up. But rarely out of thin air (someone completely unknown creates a project on SF and people just find it and start using it). More often it is created by somebody that already have a good reputation and that reputation is sufficient to get somebody to try it and then their positive feedback cause even more to try it. Arne
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| From | Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-01 19:21 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <u761q7lvs44m2gfvl62gmroh2jjmpsu4rc@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #14109 |
On Tue, 01 May 2012 19:03:16 -0400, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
wrote:
>On 5/1/2012 1:23 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:09:09 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk>
>> wrote:
[snip]
>>> I don't think anyone has claimed a need to learn any tool under
>>> the SUN.
>>
>> Of course not. Everyone and his dog says to use his tool. The
>> collective of all that yammering is one should use every tool under
>> the sun.
>
>Not at all.
I have encountered many who each insist that the tools that each
uses is what I should be using. Typically, they do not bother to find
out my needs before prescribing. How good is such a suggestion? Not
very.
>As I have tried to explain several times now, then one should
>utilize other developers experience. If a huge portion of the
>Java developer community is using tool XYZ, then there must be
>something good about that tool. If developer NN suggest tool ABC,
Sometimes, it seems that the good is only a marketing department.
I have used some tools that are so awkward, I have wondered how they
ever got released.
>but nobody else are using that tool, then it is most likly
>not worth spending time on.
Or it is cutting edge.
I will consider tools. I will not drink the kool-aid.
>>> The point people were trying to make is that you will not look
>>> good at the Java job market if you don't know ant - especially
>>> not with arguments like some of those posted here.
>>
>> To your first sentence: Yes, I understand that not knowing
>> certain things can have an effect on getting jobs, but to judge
>> someone totally or substantially on whether he knows one particular
>> tool goes way too far.
>
>Unless the applicant can demonstrate good knowledge of all
>other relevant tool, then not knowing one of the basic
>tools like ant will cause the interviewer to assume that
>there are many other holes in the applicants toolbox.
Then, the interviewer is falling down on the job. He should be
asking.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-05 18:49 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <4fa5ae6b$0$283$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #14122 |
On 5/1/2012 10:21 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: > On Tue, 01 May 2012 19:03:16 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk> > wrote: > >> On 5/1/2012 1:23 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >>> On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:09:09 -0400, Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk> >>> wrote: > > [snip] > >>>> I don't think anyone has claimed a need to learn any tool under >>>> the SUN. >>> >>> Of course not. Everyone and his dog says to use his tool. The >>> collective of all that yammering is one should use every tool under >>> the sun. >> >> Not at all. > > I have encountered many who each insist that the tools that each > uses is what I should be using. Typically, they do not bother to find > out my needs before prescribing. How good is such a suggestion? Not > very. Suggesting tools that are used by millions of Java devlopers is a pretty good suggestion. >> As I have tried to explain several times now, then one should >> utilize other developers experience. If a huge portion of the >> Java developer community is using tool XYZ, then there must be >> something good about that tool. If developer NN suggest tool ABC, > > Sometimes, it seems that the good is only a marketing department. > I have used some tools that are so awkward, I have wondered how they > ever got released. Do you consider "Java developer community" and "marketing department" to be similar concepts? Otherwise I can not see the relevancy! >>>> The point people were trying to make is that you will not look >>>> good at the Java job market if you don't know ant - especially >>>> not with arguments like some of those posted here. >>> >>> To your first sentence: Yes, I understand that not knowing >>> certain things can have an effect on getting jobs, but to judge >>> someone totally or substantially on whether he knows one particular >>> tool goes way too far. >> >> Unless the applicant can demonstrate good knowledge of all >> other relevant tool, then not knowing one of the basic >> tools like ant will cause the interviewer to assume that >> there are many other holes in the applicants toolbox. > > Then, the interviewer is falling down on the job. He should be > asking. You mean go through all relevant tools? That will be one very long interview! Arne
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-06 00:06 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <jo4f98$i2p$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #14305 |
On Sat, 05 May 2012 18:49:11 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 5/1/2012 10:21 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> Sometimes, it seems that the good is only a marketing department. >> I have used some tools that are so awkward, I have wondered how they >> ever got released. > > Do you consider "Java developer community" and "marketing department" > to be similar concepts? > There's a sort of connection, in that there are definitely two disjoint sets of tools out there. One set was written because the developer(s) needed them and as a result polished and tweezed them until they did the target job efficiently and were easy and elegant to use. Examples include Awk, the PostgreSQL SQL client, the Embarcadero DBA tools and the XFCE window manager The other set have rough edges and seem so awkward to use that you start to wonder if their author's have even tried to use them for the tasks they were meant to do. Examples of this group include RPG III, the IBM mainframe DB2 client, the ERWIN DBA tools and the Gnome 3 window manager. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-06 00:06 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <jo4fa6$i2q$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #14305 |
On Sat, 05 May 2012 18:49:11 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 5/1/2012 10:21 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> Sometimes, it seems that the good is only a marketing department. >> I have used some tools that are so awkward, I have wondered how they >> ever got released. > > Do you consider "Java developer community" and "marketing department" > to be similar concepts? > There's a sort of connection, in that there are definitely two disjoint sets of tools out there. One set was written because the developer(s) needed them and as a result polished and tweezed them until they did the target job efficiently and were easy and elegant to use. Examples include Awk, the PostgreSQL SQL client, the Embarcadero DBA tools and the XFCE window manager The other set have rough edges and seem so awkward to use that you start to wonder if their author's have even tried to use them for the tasks they were meant to do. Examples of this group include RPG III, the IBM mainframe DB2 client, the ERWIN DBA tools and the Gnome 3 window manager. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-06 00:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <jo4fb4$i2o$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #14305 |
On Sat, 05 May 2012 18:49:11 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 5/1/2012 10:21 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> Sometimes, it seems that the good is only a marketing department. >> I have used some tools that are so awkward, I have wondered how they >> ever got released. > > Do you consider "Java developer community" and "marketing department" > to be similar concepts? > There's a sort of connection, in that there are definitely two disjoint sets of tools out there. One set was written because the developer(s) needed them and as a result polished and tweezed them until they did the target job efficiently and were easy and elegant to use. Examples include Awk, the PostgreSQL SQL client, the Embarcadero DBA tools and the XFCE window manager The other set have rough edges and seem so awkward to use that you start to wonder if their author's have even tried to use them for the tasks they were meant to do. Examples of this group include RPG III, the IBM mainframe DB2 client, the ERWIN DBA tools and the Gnome 3 window manager. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-05 20:26 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <4fa5c544$0$294$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #14313 |
On 5/5/2012 8:07 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote: > On Sat, 05 May 2012 18:49:11 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > >> On 5/1/2012 10:21 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: > >>> Sometimes, it seems that the good is only a marketing department. >>> I have used some tools that are so awkward, I have wondered how they >>> ever got released. >> >> Do you consider "Java developer community" and "marketing department" >> to be similar concepts? >> > There's a sort of connection, in that there are definitely two disjoint > sets of tools out there. > > One set was written because the developer(s) needed them and as a result > polished and tweezed them until they did the target job efficiently and > were easy and elegant to use. Examples include Awk, the PostgreSQL SQL > client, the Embarcadero DBA tools and the XFCE window manager > > The other set have rough edges and seem so awkward to use that you start > to wonder if their author's have even tried to use them for the tasks > they were meant to do. Examples of this group include RPG III, the IBM > mainframe DB2 client, the ERWIN DBA tools and the Gnome 3 window manager. That is somewhat true. "designed by committee" is not always a success. But I do still not quite understand why Gene bring op marketing when I suggest he use tools recommended by the developer community. Arne
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-06 11:38 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <jo5ns9$rkl$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #14318 |
On Sat, 05 May 2012 20:26:41 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 5/5/2012 8:07 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote: >> On Sat, 05 May 2012 18:49:11 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> >>> On 5/1/2012 10:21 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> >>>> Sometimes, it seems that the good is only a marketing >>>> department. >>>> I have used some tools that are so awkward, I have wondered how they >>>> ever got released. >>> >>> Do you consider "Java developer community" and "marketing department" >>> to be similar concepts? >>> >> There's a sort of connection, in that there are definitely two disjoint >> sets of tools out there. >> >> One set was written because the developer(s) needed them and as a >> result polished and tweezed them until they did the target job >> efficiently and were easy and elegant to use. Examples include Awk, the >> PostgreSQL SQL client, the Embarcadero DBA tools and the XFCE window >> manager >> >> The other set have rough edges and seem so awkward to use that you >> start to wonder if their author's have even tried to use them for the >> tasks they were meant to do. Examples of this group include RPG III, >> the IBM mainframe DB2 client, the ERWIN DBA tools and the Gnome 3 >> window manager. > > That is somewhat true. > > "designed by committee" is not always a success. > > But I do still not quite understand why Gene bring op marketing when I > suggest he use tools recommended by the developer community. > Probably because he thinks my second group of tools are invariably the result of sales guys pushing their outfit into cashing in with a copycat development. I'd say that a lot of them are just that, but some aren't. For instance, I doubt that there was a sales push behind either of Microsoft's edlin or Wordpad editors, but clearly somebody thought they were a good idea and published them despite their rather nasty UI (edlin) and minimal capabilities (both editors). It would be interesting to know what their development teams used for their everyday editing needs. After all both vi and emacs predate DOS and edlin by 5 or 6 years and, regardless of whether you love or hate their UI (which is no worse than edlin's one), you have to admit that both are extremely capable editors and initially ran in similarly small memories too. BTW, I'm not deliberately kicking Microsoft for once: just using their editors as a examples of rather poor tools that most people on this list are likely to have used. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | markspace <-@.> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-06 08:41 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <jo662s$7sl$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #14332 |
On 5/6/2012 4:38 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote: > Microsoft's edlin or Wordpad editors, but clearly somebody thought they > were a good idea and published them despite their rather nasty UI (edlin) > and minimal capabilities (both editors). It would be interesting to know > what their development teams used for their everyday editing needs. After > all both vi and emacs predate DOS and edlin by 5 or 6 years and, > regardless of whether you love or hate their UI (which is no worse than Just interjecting here: line editors are a much older and simpler tool than full screen editors. My recollection is that traditionally when you are writing an OS from scratch, you build the simplest pieces first to get started, then more complex ones. edlin and the Unix equivalent "ed" are simple line editors that don't require a working full screen library. edlin was probably what MS used in the early days to bootstrap their development. And if you ever found yourself with out a working full screen library for whatever reason (say you're working remotely on a teletype) you still have edlin (or ed) in your command line to configure a few things in the OS.
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| From | Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-07 10:24 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <101gq7pqp57cpj9ddgjm22379pqd8uea1k@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #14332 |
On Sun, 6 May 2012 11:38:49 +0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie
<martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 05 May 2012 20:26:41 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
[snip]
>> That is somewhat true.
>>
>> "designed by committee" is not always a success.
>>
>> But I do still not quite understand why Gene bring op marketing when I
>> suggest he use tools recommended by the developer community.
>>
>Probably because he thinks my second group of tools are invariably the
>result of sales guys pushing their outfit into cashing in with a copycat
>development. I'd say that a lot of them are just that, but some aren't.
Not invariably.
Other people have their interests. These interests might
coincide with mine, and they might not.
I will decide on the basis of *MY* interests.
>For instance, I doubt that there was a sales push behind either of
>Microsoft's edlin or Wordpad editors, but clearly somebody thought they
>were a good idea and published them despite their rather nasty UI (edlin)
>and minimal capabilities (both editors). It would be interesting to know
I thought edlin ridiculous.
I liked WordPad. If it had had just a few more features, I would
not have had to use Word much, if at all. (Page breaks and just a bit
more formatting would have done it for me.) That would not be true
today, but I still need much less than what Word has. I am still
using Word 97.
>what their development teams used for their everyday editing needs. After
>all both vi and emacs predate DOS and edlin by 5 or 6 years and,
>regardless of whether you love or hate their UI (which is no worse than
>edlin's one), you have to admit that both are extremely capable editors
>and initially ran in similarly small memories too.
I think edlin is a bit better, but all of them are in my
better-avoided category.
>BTW, I'm not deliberately kicking Microsoft for once: just using their
>editors as a examples of rather poor tools that most people on this list
>are likely to have used.
That was clear.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
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| From | Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-07 10:18 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9l0gq79j7rmu3fb949ovl8q5dh6co3k03n@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #14318 |
On Sat, 05 May 2012 20:26:41 -0400, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
wrote:
>On 5/5/2012 8:07 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 May 2012 18:49:11 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/1/2012 10:21 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>
>>>> Sometimes, it seems that the good is only a marketing department.
>>>> I have used some tools that are so awkward, I have wondered how they
>>>> ever got released.
>>>
>>> Do you consider "Java developer community" and "marketing department"
>>> to be similar concepts?
>>>
>> There's a sort of connection, in that there are definitely two disjoint
>> sets of tools out there.
>>
>> One set was written because the developer(s) needed them and as a result
>> polished and tweezed them until they did the target job efficiently and
>> were easy and elegant to use. Examples include Awk, the PostgreSQL SQL
>> client, the Embarcadero DBA tools and the XFCE window manager
>>
>> The other set have rough edges and seem so awkward to use that you start
>> to wonder if their author's have even tried to use them for the tasks
>> they were meant to do. Examples of this group include RPG III, the IBM
>> mainframe DB2 client, the ERWIN DBA tools and the Gnome 3 window manager.
>
>That is somewhat true.
Ha! All too true, all too many times.
Sybase PowerDesigner is very awkward.
Oh, you can get some very nice results from it, but the handling
of method definitions is very awkward. What were they thinking?
The documentation (for the version I used) was broken up into so
many pieces, and it was not readily apparent where the documentation
for a given point was. Again, what were they thinking?
>"designed by committee" is not always a success.
>
>But I do still not quite understand why Gene bring op marketing when
>I suggest he use tools recommended by the developer community.
Because I know what the word "marketing" means.
Recommendation by the developer community is a form of marketing.
As a purchaser (whether handing over money, buying in, or both),
I have to consider my needs. The needs of the rest of the world are
not of such a great concern. I refuse to join the stampede.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-06 00:06 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <jo4fa9$i2r$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #14305 |
On Sat, 05 May 2012 18:49:11 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 5/1/2012 10:21 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> Sometimes, it seems that the good is only a marketing department. >> I have used some tools that are so awkward, I have wondered how they >> ever got released. > > Do you consider "Java developer community" and "marketing department" > to be similar concepts? > There's a sort of connection, in that there are definitely two disjoint sets of tools out there. One set was written because the developer(s) needed them and as a result polished and tweezed them until they did the target job efficiently and were easy and elegant to use. Examples include Awk, the PostgreSQL SQL client, the Embarcadero DBA tools and the XFCE window manager The other set have rough edges and seem so awkward to use that you start to wonder if their author's have even tried to use them for the tasks they were meant to do. Examples of this group include RPG III, the IBM mainframe DB2 client, the ERWIN DBA tools and the Gnome 3 window manager. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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