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Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java

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  Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java saxo123@gmx.de - 2011-10-24 15:07 -0700
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java markspace <-@.> - 2011-10-24 16:10 -0700
      Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-05 22:16 -0400
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java William Colls <william.colls@rogers.com> - 2011-10-24 22:24 -0400
      Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-25 07:06 +0000
        Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Jim Gibson <jimsgibson@gmail.com> - 2011-10-25 10:03 -0700
          Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-10-25 20:00 -0700
            Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-26 20:59 +0000
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java saxo123@gmx.de - 2011-10-25 02:48 -0700
      Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-10-25 04:18 -0700
        Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Ten Blade <ten.blade@tenblade.com> - 2011-10-26 13:49 +0000
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java saxo123@gmx.de - 2011-10-26 00:52 -0700
      Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Wojtek <nowhere@a.com> - 2011-10-26 23:27 -0700
        Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java saxo123@gmx.de - 2011-10-27 00:58 -0700
      Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-10-27 08:07 -0700
        Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-10-27 10:18 -0700
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-10-26 08:35 -0700
      Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-26 21:51 +0100
        Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java RedGrittyBrick <RedGrittyBrick@spamweary.invalid> - 2011-10-27 11:32 +0100
          Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Jef <e70838@gmail.com> - 2011-10-27 05:45 -0700
          Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-10-27 10:28 -0700
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-26 21:54 +0100
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-10-26 20:45 -0500
      Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Jim Gibson <jimsgibson@gmail.com> - 2011-10-27 16:31 -0700
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-10-27 17:02 -0700
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-10-27 17:07 -0700

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#9254

On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:32:59 +0100, RedGrittyBrick
<RedGrittyBrick@spamweary.invalid> wrote:

[snip]

>There's some truth in this but I program Perl, I program Java. Which 
>cultural pigeon hole should I cower in? A trainer might address the 
>different language cultures but I wouldn't focus on it too much.

     I have a non-programming situation of cross-culture.

     At my alma mater, they have the Writing Centre for helping
students with English.  I have volunteered there for years.  I
consider English (or whatever the local natural language is (or "...s
are")) to be the most important programming language.  (Compiling it
into a computer programming language is quite the trick.)

     They also have the Math Centre for helping people with math.  I
minored in math.

     When the new library -- pardon, House of Learning -- was planned,
they smooshed both centres into one room.  There are definitely
cultural issues.  The old room for Math had the many bulletin boards
decorated with posters (of mathematicians, of university programs),
cartoons, jokes, and so on.  There is not much room for that in the
new room.  Math students also tend to stick around for hours at a time
working and to work with each other.  Students coming to the Writing
Centre tend to come for their appointments only and to work elsewhere.

     There has been a bit of friction, and now, the co-ordinator of
the Writing Centre has set up an opinion box.  She is trying to
improve the situation.

     I can see both sides.  I would not want to be stuck in either
one.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#9214

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, saxo123@gmx.de wrote:

> Problem is now that I have no clue about Perl. So I cannot judge whether 
> they would be interested.

They'll be smarter than your SAP programmers. They'll be interested in new 
stuff. They won't be at all impressed by static types, separate 
compilation, the length of Hello World, or the need for everything to be 
inside a class. They will eventually admit grudging respect for 
java.util.regex.

They won't be anywhere near as good at wild generalisations as me.

tom

-- 
The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures
the disease. -- Voltaire

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#9227

On 10/24/2011 5:07 PM, saxo123@gmx.de wrote:
> I lately applied for quite an ineresting Java job. It turned out that
> I would also have to teach Perl programmers Java. Now, there's the
> rub... I once had to teach SAP developers Java. That was a little
> nightmare. The SAP programmers were not all interested, had basically
> no interest in computer science as such. Worst of all the boss thought
> Java was something like SAP just from a different manufacturer and
> everybody could learn it like SAP itself. I fear this could turn out
> the same again with teaching Perl programmers Java ...

I'll admit that I don't really know Perl (I can muddle my way through 
reading it, but I have no hope of writing it anytime soon), so I'm 
probably more liable to grasp at stereotypes than honest truths.

My first thought of Perl is that it is often used for "little" scripts 
(e.g., a script that looks through a log file to find more useful data). 
I do know that it has some vague object-oriented features, but I believe 
that this feature lacks things like virtual methods and inheritance that 
are normally associated with object-oriented paradigms.

I suspect that you will most notably find grousing about explicit static 
typing, as opposed to Perl's implicit duck typing. To a lesser degree, 
people may grouse about Java needing to put methods in classes. It is 
possible (I'm really bordering on stereotype here) that your Perl 
programmers may grouse about how much more difficult it is to do textual 
manipulation in Java compared to Perl, particularly in the difficulty of 
handling stdin and running regexes.

-- 
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not 
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth

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#9262

In article <j8ad3n$ur3$1@dont-email.me>, Joshua Cranmer
<Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> wrote:

> On 10/24/2011 5:07 PM, saxo123@gmx.de wrote:
> > I lately applied for quite an ineresting Java job. It turned out that
> > I would also have to teach Perl programmers Java. Now, there's the
> > rub... I once had to teach SAP developers Java. That was a little
> > nightmare. The SAP programmers were not all interested, had basically
> > no interest in computer science as such. Worst of all the boss thought
> > Java was something like SAP just from a different manufacturer and
> > everybody could learn it like SAP itself. I fear this could turn out
> > the same again with teaching Perl programmers Java ...
> 
> I'll admit that I don't really know Perl (I can muddle my way through 
> reading it, but I have no hope of writing it anytime soon), so I'm 
> probably more liable to grasp at stereotypes than honest truths.
> 
> My first thought of Perl is that it is often used for "little" scripts 
> (e.g., a script that looks through a log file to find more useful data). 
> I do know that it has some vague object-oriented features, but I believe 
> that this feature lacks things like virtual methods and inheritance that 
> are normally associated with object-oriented paradigms.

Nope. Inheritance and virtual methods are supported.

> It is 
> possible (I'm really bordering on stereotype here) that your Perl 
> programmers may grouse about how much more difficult it is to do textual 
> manipulation in Java compared to Perl, particularly in the difficulty of 
> handling stdin and running regexes.

You got that right!

-- 
Jim Gibson

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#9263

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:07:01 -0700 (PDT), saxo123@gmx.de wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>I would also have to teach Perl programmers Java. 

If I were in your shoes, here are some things I would do;

1. have a scan of Perl newsgroup and forums.  See what problems they
have and what drives them nuts about Perl.  I suspect it will be when
little projects grow too big and the whole thing becomes impossible to
maintain. See which of these problems Java has solutions for.  This
will provide some motivation.  Perl programmers are going to barf at
Java's verbosity.  You will need all the bait you can muster to make
them accept it.

2. Lean Perl myself. Implement a small project. See
http://mindprod.com/project/projects.html for some ideas.

3. find some examples of inscrutable Perl code and ask the class to
tell you what it does. Explain that Java is designed for team
projects. It imposes rigid structure to make it easy for programmers
to understand each other's code.  Then show them some Java code, (pick
anything from my website).  Ask them what the code does. They may be
surprised that, even without yet knowing Java, they have a pretty good
idea.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
It should not be considered an error when the user starts something
already started or stops something already stopped. This applies
to browsers, services, editors... It is inexcusable to 
punish the user by requiring some elaborate sequence to atone,
e.g. open the task editor, find and kill some processes.

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#9264

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:07:01 -0700 (PDT), saxo123@gmx.de wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>I would also have to teach Perl programmers Java. N

My greatest teaching success was at a computer summer camp for kids 7
to 15.  I asked each kid why he wanted to learn to program computers.
Nearly all said to create computer games.  So in my opening remarks I
said, "We are only going to teach you things you MUST know to create
computer games. It may not appear that way at first, but it is. I
promise I will not waste your time teaching you anything not directly
relevant to that goal."  You have never seen a more motivated set of
students in your life.

You might be able to do something similar with Java.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
It should not be considered an error when the user starts something
already started or stops something already stopped. This applies
to browsers, services, editors... It is inexcusable to 
punish the user by requiring some elaborate sequence to atone,
e.g. open the task editor, find and kill some processes.

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