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Re: "Small" Program Challenge.

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On 18/06/2012 4:36 PM, Lew wrote:
> On Monday, June 18, 2012 1:01:41 PM UTC-7, javax.swing.JSnarker wrote:
>> On 18/06/2012 3:44 PM, Lew wrote:
>>> "A class or interface type T will be initialized immediately before the first occurrence of any one of the following:
>>>
>>> - T is a class and a static method declared by T is invoked.
>>
>> This is the case that seems to be applicable here. It should not be
>> erroring out trying to invoke main until after initialization, because
>> the initialization must occur immediately *before* the invocation
>> attempt (since it must have occurred if that attempt succeeds or again
>> the spec is violated).
>>
>>> You are saying that the first case applies, an instance is created because of
>>> the third case, a static field is assigned. But that assignment shouldn't happen
>>> yet because nothing has invoked the class legally, i.e., the sequence to invoke
>>> 'main()' didn't happen. It is, in fact, the invocation of 'main()' that is supposed to
>>> trigger the initialization.
>>
>> That's backwards. Initialization must *precede* the invocation, not
>
> Invocation precedes initialization, in that it is one of the triggers for
> initialization, as described in the JLS.

That's confused thinking. Invocation *cannot* precede initialization if 
initialization must have been done before the method's code starts 
running. It can't run the method *before* initialization.

The language of the spec does not say, however, that invocation will be 
followed by initialization. As you quoted it above, it clearly says that 
initialization will occur *immediately before invocation* in these 
cases. Initialization first, THEN invocation.

The trigger is not invocation itself, as it can't be as initialization 
would then happen one invocation too late. The trigger is that that 
invocation (attempt) is imminent, but has not yet already happened.

> The attempt to invoke causes initialization before invocation completes.

That also doesn't make sense. The attempt to invoke and the execution, 
if the attempt is successful, of the method are all one single thing. 
Initialization either happens before or after it -- and it cannot happen 
after. Therefore it happens before.

If I attempt to catch a ball and then put on my baseball glove, then the 
ball will land in my bare hand if the attempt succeeds. If I put on my 
baseball glove and then attempt to catch a ball, the ball will land in 
my gloved hand if the attempt succeeds. The spec says the ball should 
land in my gloved hand. So, I can wait until immediately before 
attempting to catch the ball to put the glove on, but I cannot wait 
until after the attempt. (And if the analogy with the JLS spec is 
continued, I mustn't put the glove on until immediately before the first 
such attempt.)

> I've provided a link and citation of the relevant JLS section. Twice.
> Read it.

I did. If anyone didn't read it it was you. It clearly said 
initialization *precedes* the first of any of a number of things done to 
a class, including method invocation. Your notion that method invocation 
can happen first and initialization later is based on nothing in the 
written text of the spec, and, furthermore, simply does not make sense.

>> *follow* it. The JVM is required to initialize the class just *before*
>> attempting to invoke the main method, and indeed up through Java 6 that
>> is precisely what it did.
>
> No, it is initialized just before the method is invoked.

There you are, then. *Before* the method is invoked. Not after. And 
certainly not during. (None of this stuff is thread-safe!) Initialize, 
then (attempt to) invoke method. Cannot be the other way around, or the 
ball will land in an ungloved hand if the attempt succeeds.

> And initialization doesn't occur until such an attempt or one of the other
> triggering events.

But then it occurs immediately *before*.

> In particular, the class is not automatically initialized when loaded.

No, but in practice it's not loaded until right before it would be 
initialized, because it would just be wasting memory during the interim.

> Read the JLS.

You read it. Or reread it. Obviously you missed something or got confused.

-- 
public final class JSnarker
extends JComponent
A JSnarker is an NNTP-aware component that asynchronously provides 
snarky output when the Ego.needsPuncturing() event is fired in cljp.

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"Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-13 13:45 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-13 13:52 -0700
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-13 16:17 -0700
      Re: "Small" Program Challenge. glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-14 00:16 +0000
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-13 16:19 -0700
      Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-13 16:24 -0700
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-13 17:40 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-13 21:28 -0400
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-06-13 20:52 -0700
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "Hiram Hunt" <hiramhunt@verizon.net> - 2012-06-14 08:23 -0400
      Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "Hiram Hunt" <hiramhunt@verizon.net> - 2012-06-14 08:30 -0400
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-17 21:17 -0400
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Paul Cager <paul.cager@googlemail.com> - 2012-06-14 02:32 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Bent C Dalager <bcd@pvv.ntnu.no> - 2012-06-14 11:29 +0000
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-14 12:50 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-06-14 15:49 -0500
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-14 14:56 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-14 17:02 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-14 17:09 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2012-06-15 22:13 -0700
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-16 12:11 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-06-17 15:22 +0200
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-17 15:24 -0700
      Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-17 18:25 -0400
        Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-17 20:31 -0400
          Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-17 20:55 -0400
            Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-17 20:40 -0700
              Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-17 23:43 -0400
              Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-06-17 21:25 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 00:45 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-18 12:47 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 15:57 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-18 13:31 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-06-18 16:05 -0500
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-18 14:18 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 19:50 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 19:48 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-06-19 08:07 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 15:26 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-18 09:04 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 13:09 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-18 11:06 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 14:46 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-18 13:22 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 19:51 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-06-20 13:11 +0200
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-22 12:54 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-22 18:30 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-25 12:59 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-25 16:49 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-18 12:44 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 16:01 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-18 13:36 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 20:01 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-18 18:25 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 22:01 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-18 19:04 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 22:12 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2012-06-19 12:36 +0000
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 15:28 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-19 09:12 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 15:30 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-19 15:04 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 18:23 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-19 15:32 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 19:09 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 19:10 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-19 17:19 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 20:42 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-06-19 20:01 -0500
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 21:12 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-06-19 20:32 -0500
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-06-19 22:01 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-20 21:15 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-20 21:05 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-06-23 13:42 +0200
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-23 12:12 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-06-23 23:10 +0200
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-23 17:14 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-06-19 22:15 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2012-06-20 10:34 +0000
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-20 10:45 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2012-06-21 08:13 +0000
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-21 17:18 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-21 15:30 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-21 20:28 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-20 21:22 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-20 21:19 -0400

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