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Re: "Small" Program Challenge.

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On 18/06/2012 4:31 PM, Lew wrote:
> On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:57:53 PM UTC-7, javax.swing.JSnarker wrote:
>> On 18/06/2012 3:47 PM, Lew wrote:
>>> Loading does not imply initialization, and in fact cannot.
>>
>> Wrong. Loading and initialization go hand-in-hand.
>>
>>> The JVM is forbidden to initialize a class except under specific
>>> circumstances, a
>>
>> What?
>
> See JLS 12.4, which I cited upthread:

Why did you write half a sentence and end it in mid-word, though?

>> Wrong. Loading and initialization go hand-in-hand.
>
> Not according to the JLS. What authority are you using?

The fact that initialization is required before use of a class 
(instantiation, invocation of a static method, whatever), and that 
loading is not required until the circumstances that permit and require 
initialization. Thus, loading will tend not to occur until right before 
use, and initialization will thus tend to occur right after loading.

>> You haven't cited anything except my own post, and your quotation of
>> *that* was a jumbled mess with some sections repeated for some reason.
>
> Again, I quoted the section I re-quoted in this post. I provided the link
> *and* quoted the relevant content. How can you say I didn't?

You didn't provide any link and you quoted some stuff from my post 
*twice*, for some reason. There seems to be a partial quote of it and a 
bit of inline commentary from you (criticisms, natch), followed by a 
second attribution line and then a quote of the entirety of my post, 
including the parts already quoted earlier.

>> Wrong. Loading and initialization go hand-in-hand.
>
> Except according to the JLS.

The fact that initialization is required before use of a class 
(instantiation, invocation of a static method, whatever), and that 
loading is not required until the circumstances that permit and require 
initialization. Thus, loading will tend not to occur until right before 
use, and initialization will thus tend to occur right after loading.

>> Load the class.
>> Initialize the class.
>
> Note - that is two steps, not one.

However, there is little point in doing the first step until right 
before the second step, so in practice they should occur back-to-back.

>> a call to A.foo() should return 100, not 0. If it can attempt to invoke
>> foo before the static initializer has executed that would be violated.
>
> It can attempt to call 'foo()' before the initializer has executed.

No, it generally can't. If the attempt succeeds and, as a consequence, 
foo() executes before the initializer has executed, then foo will 
incorrectly return 0. Therefore the attempt must not be made until the 
initializer has executed, except in the peculiar case that the attempt 
is known in advance to be guaranteed to fail. In which case there should 
have been a compile-time error earlier still.

> This is exactly one of the circumstances that causes the initializers
> to execute.

You are confused. You seem to be thinking the order is

Load class
Attempt to call foo
Initialize class

But this can only be guaranteed not to violate the semantic requirements 
if the attempt is known to be sure to fail. If the attempt to call foo 
might succeed, then the order MUST be

Load class
Initialize class
Attempt to call foo

so that if the third step succeeds and foo begins executing, foo does 
not encounter things still in an uninitialized state that the spec 
guarantees must have been initialized before foo begins executing!

> Read the JLS! I have referenced and quoted the relevant section twice now.

And I've replied to it once, and it clearly states that initialization 
must occur *before* any invocation of a static method. Your suggestion 
that it can invoke it first and *then* initialize the class simply 
cannot fly.

> I haven't seen any examples of reflection in this thread.

How is the main method invoked? It obviously isn't a statically-compiled 
call from another class, and the only other invocation mechanism is 
reflection; therefore it is called reflectively, by something that 
behaves analogously to 
Class.forName(argv[1]).getMethod("main",ARRAY_OF_JUST_THE_STRING_ARRAY_CLASS).invoke(null,convertRestOfArgv);.

>> initialized A yet, how can it be sure whether or not it has a method
>> bar? On the other hand, if it's a non-reflective call the code calling
>> bar won't even compile.
>

Why is the above quoted, but not responded to?

-- 
public final class JSnarker
extends JComponent
A JSnarker is an NNTP-aware component that asynchronously provides 
snarky output when the Ego.needsPuncturing() event is fired in cljp.

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Thread

"Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-13 13:45 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-13 13:52 -0700
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-13 16:17 -0700
      Re: "Small" Program Challenge. glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-14 00:16 +0000
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-13 16:19 -0700
      Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-13 16:24 -0700
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-13 17:40 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-13 21:28 -0400
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-06-13 20:52 -0700
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "Hiram Hunt" <hiramhunt@verizon.net> - 2012-06-14 08:23 -0400
      Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "Hiram Hunt" <hiramhunt@verizon.net> - 2012-06-14 08:30 -0400
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-17 21:17 -0400
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Paul Cager <paul.cager@googlemail.com> - 2012-06-14 02:32 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Bent C Dalager <bcd@pvv.ntnu.no> - 2012-06-14 11:29 +0000
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-14 12:50 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-06-14 15:49 -0500
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-14 14:56 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-14 17:02 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-14 17:09 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2012-06-15 22:13 -0700
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-16 12:11 -0700
  Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-06-17 15:22 +0200
    Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-17 15:24 -0700
      Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-17 18:25 -0400
        Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-06-17 20:31 -0400
          Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-17 20:55 -0400
            Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-17 20:40 -0700
              Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-17 23:43 -0400
              Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-06-17 21:25 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 00:45 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-18 12:47 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 15:57 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-18 13:31 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-06-18 16:05 -0500
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-18 14:18 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 19:50 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 19:48 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2012-06-19 08:07 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 15:26 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-18 09:04 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 13:09 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-18 11:06 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 14:46 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-18 13:22 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 19:51 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-06-20 13:11 +0200
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-06-22 12:54 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-22 18:30 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-25 12:59 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-25 16:49 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-18 12:44 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 16:01 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-18 13:36 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 20:01 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-18 18:25 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 22:01 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-18 19:04 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-18 22:12 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2012-06-19 12:36 +0000
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 15:28 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-19 09:12 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 15:30 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-19 15:04 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 18:23 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-06-19 15:32 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 19:09 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 19:10 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-19 17:19 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 20:42 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-06-19 20:01 -0500
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-19 21:12 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-06-19 20:32 -0500
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-06-19 22:01 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-20 21:15 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-20 21:05 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-06-23 13:42 +0200
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-23 12:12 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-06-23 23:10 +0200
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-23 17:14 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-06-19 22:15 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2012-06-20 10:34 +0000
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-20 10:45 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2012-06-21 08:13 +0000
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-21 17:18 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-21 15:30 -0700
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-21 20:28 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-20 21:22 -0400
                Re: "Small" Program Challenge. "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2012-06-20 21:19 -0400

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