Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #12418

Re: Swing is dead! Long live Swing.

Show key headers only | View raw

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> Lew wrote:
>> One claim I do make is that the further down from compilation to
>> customer use you go, the worse it is to catch and fix problems. I
>> compared the endpoints; you provided a midpoint in that spectrum. I do
>> not claim, in fact explicitly disclaimed that one should never pay such
>> a cost. It's a question of what you can afford and what it buys you,
>> always.
>
>> No one is claiming that compilers and type safety solve all problems.
>> What are you hoping to prove? The fact remains that errors that *are*
>> caught at compilation are cheaper to fix than those caught later. The
>> ones that are missed don't change that.
>
> I agree with the principle of earlier is better.
>
> But note that an inconsistency between Java and FXML will
> cause an exception every time the scene is attempted to be
> displayed.
>
> I will expect GUI developers to try and run their GUI at least once
> before considering a change to be done.
>
> So the practical difference between compile time error and runtime
> error in this specific case is not as big as in many other cases.

I was careful to use the term "compilation to customer". You're still talking 
about a point well before customer exposure. You do illustrate that there's a 
continuum involved.

I reiterate that compile-time checks are not going to catch everything. I 
reiterate the point others including you make that there are stages between 
compilation and customer. I reiterate that along that continuum are many 
useful steps, and I concur that they're all needed.

Everything is about cost-benefit. You have so much time and energy in a 
project to fix bugs, refactor, add features, and do QA. QA cannot be all 
manual and catch everything after the fact, even at the penultimate stage 
before customer deployment. As much as possible (but no more) must be pushed 
to compilation and other early at-developer-desk stages. As much as possible 
(but no more) of what's left must be pushed to early integration testing. As 
much as possible (but no more) of what's left must be pushed to later 
pre-deployment testing. As much as possible (but no more) of all that testing 
must be automated. As little as possible (and even less) must go wrong at the 
customer site.

Some might argue that "must" is too strong; "should" will suffice. To those I 
say sure, if you aren't motivated to do the most good for the least effort and 
cost, by all means use "should".

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> Lew wrote:
>> Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> ...
>>> Same goes for FXML: where elements of FXML are references to Java
>>> things, a proper tool can clearly maintain the mappings between FXML and
>>> Java.
>>>
>>> Surprise, surprise: you actually do have some tools out there that
>>> competently do stuff like this, like IntelliJ IDEA for JSF 2.0.
>>
>> Does it work with FXML?
>
> I would assume not.
>
> I would also assume that tools for FXML will show up if/when
> JavaFX becomes popular.

The whole point of the "use tools!" rant is sort of moot if the tools aren't 
ready yet.

-- 
Lew
Some say the only requirements in life are death and taxes. Not true. The 
prisons have many inmates who freely chose not to pay their taxes.

Back to comp.lang.java.programmer | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Knute Johnson <nospam@rabbitbrush.frazmtn.com> - 2012-02-15 19:25 -0800
  Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-02-15 20:13 -0800
    Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-16 18:33 -0500
  Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-16 19:13 +0000
    Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-16 18:32 -0500
      Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-17 16:35 +0000
        Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-17 18:00 -0500
          Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:05 -0500
  Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-16 18:29 -0500
    Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-02-16 15:50 -0800
      Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-16 18:52 -0500
        Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-02-16 16:01 -0800
          Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-16 19:07 -0500
        Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-02-20 20:27 +0100
          Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-20 18:39 -0500
            Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-02-21 02:09 +0100
              Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-20 20:28 -0500
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-20 20:29 -0500
          Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 11:37 -0400
            Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 10:58 -0500
            Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-02-26 18:24 +0100
              Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 10:27 -0800
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:16 -0800
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:05 -0500
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-02-28 23:19 +0100
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 00:00 -0800
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-29 09:10 -0800
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-29 05:53 -0400
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-02-29 11:11 +0100
              Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:16 -0800
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 19:32 -0400
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 16:59 -0800
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 21:03 -0500
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:22 -0800
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:00 -0500
                Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2012-02-28 23:34 +0100
  Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-16 16:43 -0800
  Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-02-17 09:24 -0800
    Re: Swing is dead!  Long live Swing. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-17 17:52 -0500

csiph-web