Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #12072

Re: "Borrowing" code

From	BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: "Borrowing" code
Date	2012-02-16 15:19 -0700
Organization	albasani.net
Message-ID	<jhjves$rds$1@news.albasani.net> (permalink)
References	<Xns9FFB971CFBEEEjpnasty@94.75.214.39>

Show all headers | View raw

On 2/16/2012 12:50 PM, Novice wrote:
> I'm curious to know the legalities involved in "borrowing" code without
> paying for it.
>

I am by no means a legal expert, nor am I functioning as a valid legal 
council, but I am writing of these matters as I understand them.

> Let me clarify. Let's say that I find some code snippets or even entire
> classes, displayed on websites and that it would save me time and money
> to use those classes in my own projects. This web site, www.java2s.com,
> is just one of many such web sites on the Internet, as is the Java
> Tutorial at the Oracle website.
>
> Assuming I make no claim that I am the author (by leaving the @author
> Javadoc tag empty), am I "stealing" this code? What if I cite the author
> name in the @author tag (or the URL of the webpage in a comment if the
> author's name isn't present in the code)? Or would I have to get written
> permission of the author or website to use the code? Or even obtain a
> licence before I can use the code?
>

here is the issue:
it is not about who is cited as the author, this is related to academic 
notions of "plagiarism", but is not all that relevant as far as code is 
concerned;
you don't generally "obtain" a license to use someones' code, they 
assign a license to said code (describing the particular terms under 
which it can be used), and everyone else is expected to follow these 
terms (under the power of law).

it is worth looking for the terms, as many people will just put the code 
under some or another FOSS license (GPL, BSD, MIT, ...), in which case 
one can use it freely under these terms.

one can often "license" something (as in, pay them for the legal right 
to make use of it), but this is a different matter (not directly related 
to copyright law per-se, but may be regarded as a use-case for copyright 
law).

> Code published in web pages or newsgroup posts "feels" as if it should be
> in the public domain but I think that's just wishful thinking on my part.

yes, it is wishful thinking (partly).

typically, the website will list somewhere what sort of terms of use the 
code is under.
as far as the law is concerned, if no terms of conditions are found, one 
either has to ask permission, or has no implicit rights to use the code.

in practice, it probably doesn't matter too much, since:
if they put it up on a website, they probably don't really care whether 
or not anyone uses it (they probably intend that someone does make use 
of it);
if the fragment is fairly small, the courts probably aren't really going 
to bother to care either.

it is also not like you are going, taking some random piece of 
commercial software, and ripping off bits of its source code. this would 
be far less certain, and people are far more likely to try to sue out of 
general principle.

similarly, small fragments may also fall under the terms of "fair use", 
which isn't technically the same as "public domain", but rather means 
that the law has decided not to bother.

this, however, does lead to some controversy, with different people 
having differing opinions as to what constitutes fair use.

some people believe in notions of "strict copyright enforcement" which 
implicitly denies the notion of fair use, but AFAIK what cases have been 
raised on these grounds have often been dismissed as "frivolous" in the 
courts.

most commonly, this has been in relation to people using short 
audio-clips from songs in composing longer songs, or in using parts of 
images in constructing other artwork or in TV shows, like "our logo can 
be made out in this particular shot of this particular episode of this 
particular show, we want the network to pay us $100M" (then one can see 
just how long until the case gets dismissed). (or, in an old, terrible, 
"futuristic" SciFi movie where one could clearly see a computer with a 
Windows 9x desktop in one of the shots, it is nice to know that the 
distant future uses CRT monitors and runs Windows 98, never-mind that 
"Encom OS" was apparently actually Ubuntu, ...).

the notion of strict-enforcement remains more common with code, but 
probably only assuming anyone actually cares, and if it is put up on a 
website for public use, it is probably not all that likely that anyone 
is going to care.

"tables of numbers or other information" are generally safe.

> Given that you can look at it without paying anyone for that privilege,
> and copy it into your own IDE and try it, etc. it feels as if it is there
> to be used. But as I understand it, those who create written works,
> whether books or programs, are their owners (unless in the employ of
> others) and retain copyright on this work, a copyright that typically
> lasts for the developer's life plus 70 years.
>

yes.
but, as noted, they may either allow them to be used (maybe stated 
explicitly somewhere), or the use may fall under fair-use.

> If copyright does apply to all these snippets and example classes, would
> I be able to bypass copyright by modifying the code in some small way -
> maybe just with some comments or different variable names - or would that
> be the equivalent of painting a stolen car: it doesn't negate the fact
> that it's stolen and just tries to make it less obvious?
>

it, again, depends.

there is a rule of something like 20% modification means copyright no 
longer applies, but what exactly this means for code is less clear.

I would guess that code which differs only in that the variable names 
are changed and that 20% of the characters are different would not apply.

however, if the code has been "naturally" altered almost beyond all 
recognition, I would guess it is probably safe.

> I've been banging my head against a wall for a while on a couple of
> classes my project needs and I have found two perfectly good classes that
> meet my needs so I'd like to use them rather than put still more time
> into making my own classes work satisfactorily. I'd like to figure out
> what I can do to use the clases I found without having to look over my
> shoulder (or fight my conscience) on the question of "stealing" this
> code.
>

simplest answer is to see if one can find a license anywhere, and then 
act under the terms of the license.

effectively, this prevents them from taking any action, as well (as I 
understand it) any other parties they may have potentially "stolen" from 
(legally, it is their fault in this case).

however, if it is something like a warez site, then the above likely 
doesn't hold (they can't offer any sort of legal protection as they are, 
by definition, illegal).

it is much like, people are free to buy and sell stuff, but they may 
still be legally accountable for knowingly buying and selling stolen 
property (this is also why places like pawn shops will turn away things 
that they suspect are stolen).

granted, there are a lot of grey areas...

Thread

"Borrowing" code Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-16 19:50 +0000
  Re: "Borrowing" code glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-02-16 20:28 +0000
  Re: "Borrowing" code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-16 12:59 -0800
    Re: "Borrowing" code Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-16 13:51 -0800
      Re: "Borrowing" code Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-02-16 15:03 -0800
        Re: "Borrowing" code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 01:21 -0800
          Re: "Borrowing" code Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-02-17 11:29 -0800
            Re: "Borrowing" code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 11:51 -0800
              Re: "Borrowing" code Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-17 17:50 -0400
                Re: "Borrowing" code glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-02-17 22:36 +0000
                Re: "Borrowing" code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 23:27 -0800
                Re: "Borrowing" code glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-02-18 15:11 +0000
                Re: "Borrowing" code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-18 10:28 -0800
                Re: "Borrowing" code glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-02-18 20:08 +0000
                Re: "Borrowing" code Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-18 16:46 -0400
                Re: "Borrowing" code BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-20 01:58 -0700
                Re: "Borrowing" code Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-18 13:03 -0400
                Re: "Borrowing" code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-18 10:31 -0800
                Re: "Borrowing" code glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-02-18 20:15 +0000
                Re: "Borrowing" code Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-02-19 19:46 -0800
                Re: "Borrowing" code Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-19 23:08 -0600
                Re: "Borrowing" code Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-02-20 09:17 -0800
                Re: "Borrowing" code Mark <i@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> - 2012-02-20 09:32 +0000
                Re: "Borrowing" code Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-20 01:45 -0800
                Re: "Borrowing" code BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-20 08:35 -0700
                Re: "Borrowing" code Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-20 03:59 -0600
            Re: "Borrowing" code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-17 17:00 -0500
              Re: "Borrowing" code Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2012-02-17 16:08 -0600
                Re: "Borrowing" code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-17 17:14 -0500
            Re: "Borrowing" code George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2012-02-17 18:00 -0500
              Re: "Borrowing" code Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-17 21:54 -0400
          Re: "Borrowing" code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-17 17:10 -0500
            Re: "Borrowing" code glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-02-17 22:42 +0000
              Re: "Borrowing" code Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-02-17 15:22 -0800
                Re: "Borrowing" code glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-02-18 01:37 +0000
                Re: "Borrowing" code Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-02-19 19:51 -0800
      Re: "Borrowing" code Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-16 23:37 +0000
      Re: "Borrowing" code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 01:26 -0800
    Re: "Borrowing" code Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-16 19:36 -0400
      Re: "Borrowing" code Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-16 22:15 -0600
      Re: "Borrowing" code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 01:41 -0800
    Re: "Borrowing" code Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-16 23:36 +0000
      Re: "Borrowing" code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-16 18:42 -0500
  Re: "Borrowing" code BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-16 15:19 -0700
    Re: "Borrowing" code Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-16 23:50 +0000
      Re: "Borrowing" code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 01:57 -0800
        Re: "Borrowing" code Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-17 17:09 +0000
          Re: "Borrowing" code glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-02-17 18:45 +0000
            [OT] Harry Potter copyright claims (Was: "Borrowing" code) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 11:00 -0800
              Re: [OT] Harry Potter copyright claims (Was: "Borrowing" code) Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-02-17 11:36 -0800
            Re: "Borrowing" code Mark <i@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> - 2012-02-20 09:41 +0000
          Re: "Borrowing" code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 10:34 -0800
          Re: "Borrowing" code Bent C Dalager <bcd@pvv.ntnu.no> - 2012-02-18 00:08 +0000
  Re: "Borrowing" code Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-16 18:14 -0500
  Re: "Borrowing" code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-16 18:37 -0500
    Re: "Borrowing" code Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-16 17:39 -0800
  Re: "Borrowing" code Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-02-16 20:34 -0500
  Re: "Borrowing" code Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-02-16 18:01 -0800
    Re: "Borrowing" code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-16 21:18 -0500
    Re: "Borrowing" code Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-02-16 20:26 -0800
    Re: "Borrowing" code Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-02-16 20:32 -0800
    Re: "Borrowing" code BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-17 00:25 -0700
    Re: "Borrowing" code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 02:01 -0800
    Re: "Borrowing" code Mark <i@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> - 2012-02-17 11:36 +0000
  Was: "Borrowing" code -  Links for budding copyright lawyers Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-17 17:29 -0500
  Re: "Borrowing" code Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-20 19:22 +0000

csiph-web