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Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories!

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On 10/05/2011 11:48 AM, Michael Wojcik wrote:
>> Completion again. People talk about it like it's a magic bullet, but
>> it's not, especially when there are a lot of possible completions, which
>> happens when there is a common prefix (like
>> src/java/com/mylongcompanyname/mylongprojectname/dal) to a lot of the
>> filenames.
>
> Works fine for me. Is it possible that your experience is different
> from mine? Nah.

Same technical thing, no PRNG involved? Nah indeed.

>>> Not that typing long directory names would be any great burden, since
>>> entering a filename is a tiny portion of the work I do when producing
>>> new code or maintaining old.
>>
>> Every little bit adds up, and time spent doing peripheral tasks is time
>> not spent coding, testing, or debugging.
>
> You have not demonstrated that it adds up to anything significant.

I think that should be fairly obvious. If it takes you two extra seconds 
to select a file, you select ten files every hour, and you work 
forty-hour work-weeks, then in one year you spend an extra 52*40*10*2 = 
41600 seconds. That's almost half a DAY of cumulative time -- more than 
one day's work shift. Basically, without that extra two seconds per file 
selection you could be equally productive and yet get one more vacation 
day a year.

If you chronically have overtime to meet deadlines, as programmers 
normally do, make that two vacation days.

> I'll wager it doesn't. Certainly it's far less than the time I've
> spent over the last two decades writing Usenet posts.

Perhaps you should consider writing fewer Usenet posts, then.

>>>> 2. On Windows, at least, it's not implausible to reach the path name
>>>>      length limit of the filesystem and run into even more headaches.
>>>
>>> Really? The NTFS path name length limit is 32KB, for applications that
>>> use the proper APIs, which seems like it ought to be enough.
>>
>> And what "proper APIs" might those be, that for instance Microsoft's own
>> cmd.exe and Explorer evidently don't use?
>
> RTFM.

How rude. And why in hell would I have a set of Microsoft API manuals 
around anyway?

> They're the Unicode versions of the File APIs.

And these aren't what the native tools, like Explorer, use, even though 
those tools seem to support localization, to judge by the proliferation 
of Windows versions in other languages?

> cmd.exe doesn't support them properly (it does for some builtins, but
> it has its own path length limitations that are separate from the OS
> ones)

Even wackier.

> because Microsoft frankly doesn't give a damn about cmd.exe.

Even wackier still. It's no wonder they're doing so poorly in the server 
space, with that attitude.

> But that's rather beside the point, which is that the
> short path length limitation was corrected in Windows long ago - I
> think with NT 4.0.

Not so a user working with the built-in tools such as Explorer and 
cmd.exe would notice.

>> I might add that Java doesn't use these phantom APIs either, as
>> evidenced if you try to use java.io.File/FileInputStream to read a file
>> that exceeds a much shorter length.
>
> Did you specify it correctly?

new File("C:\\path\\to\\file.ext"); -- how else? Unless you're now going 
to tell me there's some other Java File API, perhaps buried several 
packages deep under java.nio?

And of course like any Java string that path is made of Unicode 
characters by the time the File class sees it. It would be strange if 
File wasn't then punting to the Unicode versions of the Windows file 
APIs under the hood.

> C:\tmp>java -cp . test
> \\?\c:\tmp\longdir123456789012345678901234567890123456789

What the fuck is that? Certainly not a pathname in normal Windows syntax 
(that would be C:\tmp\longdir...). Isn't that some syntax used for 
referencing network volumes or something?

Anyway, that's a lot of ridiculous hoop jumping and it's moot anyway 
since Java doesn't use those funny paths. For instance, try creating 
C:\Z\150-character-dirname\150-character-filename in the manner I 
described and then

new FileInputStream((new 
File("C:\Z\150-character-dirname")).listFiles()[0]);

and see how far you get. You can't use Java's own filesystem APIs to get 
handles on such files in a manner that will work. So unless the user 
hand-enters every such path into the application ...

And of course the user *doesn't* enter every such path into javac, 
bringing us back to the trouble you'll get if your package hierarchy 
results in long enough path names and anyone tries to build the app on 
Windows.

>>> Even apps
>>> that use the old API get a path length of 260 ASCII characters, which
>>> requires some effort to exceed.
>>
>> Not with Java's long/and/deeply/nested/package/hierarchies...
>
> I've never had that problem.

Lucky you.

>>> If the problem is your Windows source directories are buried under
>>> some unreasonably long path (which probably also contains spacey names
>>> and other infelicities), just create a junction to it in some more
>>> convenient place.
>>
>> Junctions are those funny-behaving versions of My Documents and such
>> that are in Vista and Windows 7, right?
>
> Junctions are a facility of NTFS, built on top of reparse points.

So?

> If you're going to complain about Windows, maybe you should learn how it
> works first.

Who says I didn't?

>> The last time I checked, the user can't create those,  at least not with
>> the default set of tools available by e.g. right-click-and-drag in
>> Explorer.
>
> Whereas in Unix and Linux installations, all possible actions are
> available in the various GUI file managers?

All actions of a basic nature such as "make symlink here" are, I'd 
expect, in a typical GUI file manager, or what good is it?

>> If Microsoft had been intelligent, competent, and capable of even decent
>> copycatting, let alone true creativity, outside of the
>> inventing-new-anticompetitive-dirty-tricks department,
>
> And now the ad hominem.

Actually, it was a conclusion drawn from available evidence. It would 
have been an ad hominem if I'd said "Microsoft plays anticompetitive 
dirty tricks, therefore you can't trust their stuff to work", but I 
didn't; I said "You can't trust their stuff to work and most of it is 
shoddily copied from competitors, therefore their creativity must be 
being spent on anticompetitive dirty tricks instead of on software 
development" instead.

> Let's all watch as Zapotec loses the ability
> to formulate an actual argument.

Sorry, but that show was canceled due to Zapotec doing something 
different instead.

>> Vista would have included real proper symlinks,
>
> It does

Not anywhere a normal user would find it, such as the right-drag menu in 
Explorer.

>> which you can click through in Explorer
>
> As indeed you can.

Not junctions; Explorer dings and says something silly along the lines 
of you need permission to do that -- silly because it says it even if 
you're logged in as root.

>> without getting error messages, and which would have been available on
>> the right click menu: right click, drag, "Make symlink here". :P
>
> I agree that being able to make links and junctions from Explorer
> would be useful for lazy whiners who can't be bothered to learn how
> their OS works.

It would also be useful for the general populace of users who prefer to 
use preview-providing browsing tools like Explorer instead of typing 
everything out longhand at the shell, particularly given how poor a job 
the cmd.exe shell does at being a shell.

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Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-05 02:31 +0000
  Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-04 22:36 -0400
  Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-04 19:35 -0700
    Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-05 14:47 +1200
      Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Esmond Pitt <esmond.pitt@bigpond.com> - 2011-05-05 16:01 +1000
        Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-05 18:43 +1200
          Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 07:08 -0400
          Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Esmond Pitt <esmond.pitt@bigpond.com> - 2011-05-06 11:38 +1000
            Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-06 15:53 +1200
              Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 00:09 -0400
              Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Esmond Pitt <esmond.pitt@bigpond.com> - 2011-05-06 18:22 +1000
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-06 22:07 +1200
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 06:58 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2011-05-06 07:12 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2011-05-06 21:58 -0500
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2011-05-07 03:18 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-07 20:28 +1200
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-05-07 19:53 +0000
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-08 14:00 +1200
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-05-08 07:50 +0000
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Paul Cager <paul.cager@googlemail.com> - 2011-05-06 06:34 -0700
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 12:06 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! 3x+rav4gan <3x7r4vag4n@fr0gs0up.x3l0n.c0m> - 2011-05-06 17:07 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 18:24 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! 3x+rav4gan <3x7r4vag4n@fr0gs0up.x3l0n.c0m> - 2011-05-06 18:25 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 18:34 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! 3x7r4vagan <3x7r4vagan@fr0gsoup.x3l0n.c0m> - 2011-05-06 18:40 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! "Spock" <spock@starfleet.ufp.null> - 2011-05-08 01:42 +0000
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! 3x7r4vagan <3x7r4vagan@fr0gsoup.x3l0n.c0m> - 2011-05-07 22:29 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2011-05-08 05:20 +0000
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2011-05-08 01:40 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! "3x7r4vagan" <3x7r4vagan@fr0gsoup.x3l0n.c0m> - 2011-05-08 06:39 +0000
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! 3x7r4vagan <3x7r4vagan@fr0gsoup.x3l0n.c0m> - 2011-05-08 05:45 -0400
              Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2011-05-06 21:57 -0500
          Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Esmond Pitt <esmond.pitt@bigpond.com> - 2011-05-06 18:31 +1000
  Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-05-04 22:02 -0700
    Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-05 17:12 +1200
      Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 07:11 -0400
      Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 10:56 -0300
        Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Steve Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net> - 2011-05-05 09:08 -0700
        Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! bugbear <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim> - 2011-05-05 17:13 +0100
  Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! dagon@dagon.net (Dagon) - 2011-05-05 09:16 -0700
    Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-06 11:56 +1200
      Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 02:35 +0200
        Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-06 18:39 +1200
          Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 07:03 -0400
            Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! "javax.swing.JSnarker" <gharriman@boojum.mit.edu> - 2011-05-06 07:13 -0400
        Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Zapotec <z_gib@wav.com> - 2011-05-06 05:57 -0400
          Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Paul Cager <paul.cager@googlemail.com> - 2011-05-06 06:47 -0700
            Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 12:17 -0400
            Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-07 15:55 +1200
          Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 18:19 +0200
            Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Zapotec <z_gib@wav.com> - 2011-05-06 17:10 -0400
              Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 23:41 +0200
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Zapotec <z_gib@wav.com> - 2011-05-06 18:26 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-07 15:56 +1200
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Zapotec <z_gib@wav.com> - 2011-05-07 03:20 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-07 20:28 +1200
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-07 07:50 -0400
          Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-05-09 13:15 -0400
            Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Zapotec <z_gib@wav.com> - 2011-05-09 18:09 -0400
              Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-10 13:43 +1200
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-05-10 11:54 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-11 14:02 +1200
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-05-18 07:58 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-20 12:35 +1200
              Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-05-10 11:48 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Zapotec <z_gib@wav.com> - 2011-05-10 23:47 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-11 08:51 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Zapotec <z_gib@wav.com> - 2011-05-11 20:44 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! RichB <rich_barnsley@nowhere.com> - 2011-05-12 16:13 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Snorkmeier <snorkmeier._10b@gmail.invalid> - 2011-05-12 08:21 +0000
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-12 08:21 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Snorkmeier <snorkmeier._10c@gmail.invalid> - 2011-05-12 20:04 +0000
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-05-18 08:00 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Zapotec <z_gib@wav.com> - 2011-05-18 11:31 -0400
            Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-10 13:46 +1200
              Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Zapotec <z_gib@wav.com> - 2011-05-10 03:44 -0400
              Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-05-10 11:55 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-11 14:02 +1200
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-11 08:56 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-05-18 08:02 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-20 12:33 +1200
      Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! rossum <rossum48@coldmail.com> - 2011-05-06 09:55 +0100
        Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-06 22:06 +1200
          Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 07:04 -0400
  Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Pitch <mail@fake.info> - 2011-05-11 10:53 +0200
    Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-11 08:57 -0400
      Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-11 19:16 +0200
      Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Pitch <mail@fake.info> - 2011-05-12 11:02 +0200
        Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-12 08:28 -0400
          Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Pitch <mail@fake.info> - 2011-05-13 11:43 +0200
            Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-05-18 08:09 -0400
              Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! John Silverstein <js19375@ymail.cox> - 2011-05-18 11:33 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-20 12:36 +1200
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! John Silverstein <js19375@ymail.cox> - 2011-05-19 23:28 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-20 15:31 +1200
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! John Silverstein <js19375@ymail.cox> - 2011-05-20 00:19 -0400
                Re: Death To Sub-Sub-Sub-Directories! Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-20 18:50 +1200

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