Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #22837

Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc...

From	Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc...
References	(5 earlier) <5138c335$0$32115$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <bha_s.144345$Hq1.140339@newsfe23.iad> <51394bc2$0$32104$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <1vi_s.66442$mC2.13335@newsfe29.iad> <ubSdnbgaHacotafMnZ2dnUVZ8vCdnZ2d@giganews.com>
Message-ID	<eCv_s.155238$Sq4.82294@newsfe14.iad> (permalink)
Organization	Public Usenet Newsgroup Access
Date	2013-03-08 20:44 -0400

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On 03/08/2013 02:06 PM, Leif Roar Moldskred wrote:
> Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> wrote:
>
>> That's right, that's the expressed reason for this kind of split.
>
> It's not a very good argument after the introduction of CSS, though,
> as the division of labour (such as it ever were) has moved to the HTML
> / CSS border.

That's one of the realities that leads me to believe that consolidated 
code objects that produce XML (XHTML) will work, because even die-hard 
grizzled non-web code monkeys like me now rely primarily on CSS for the 
visual appearance of a page.

> I think a better argument for maintaining the separation of concern is
> that neither Java nor HTML embeds well in the other.

In fact (X)HTML and tags don't embed well in each other either. Call JSF 
tags by any other name, they are still tightly coupled to code: they may 
as well be code. Again, I make this observation in the context of what 
we've stated, that very often there are no separate teams working on 
page templates and on backing code.

In fact, a decade ago or more I could've told anyone that. The "other" 
team, the graphics designers, had nothing to do with page templates then 
either, whether HTML or XML or WML or HDML. It's usually been the coders 
who deal with the whole package. A nice example of the framework 
designers being a bit too ivory tower [1].

We don't need to have X(HTML) embedded in the code that programmers 
would normally use. When the Page object, completely written in code, is 
called upon to render, the framework takes care of this. Even with 
current frameworks where we waste so much time writing page templates in 
non-code, the framework still produces 50-90 percent of the final 
rendered page.

> On the other
> hand, none of the many frameworks that tries to solve the issue have
> exactly whelmed me over either.
>
As I pointed out before, and I don't think I am far wrong, none of the 
frameworks has appreciably saved anyone any labour in close to 2 
decades. Given - and this is a big given - something like CSS2+, a CGI 
script or servlet producing raw XHTML, per page, would be as productive 
as the current modern frameworks.

I'm being something of a shit disturber here, but I think I have some 
valid points. I just wasted the best part of 2 days this week on a badly 
documented Primefaces feature that, judging by Googling, has caused 
dozens of other people to waste many days individually themselves. *A* 
feature, a single minor technicality in JSF. Given that the same visual 
effect is readily achievable using CSS, I would have gotten there 
quicker by producing suitable structural XHTML, and styled it.

AHS

1. The J2EE specs assumed right from the beginning that you'd have 
multiple stages of people working on beans. What a joke. Same thing.

Thread

Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-01 22:34 -0400
  Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-02 04:00 +0100
  Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-02 00:13 -0400
  Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2013-03-01 22:11 -0800
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-02 08:57 +0000
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 21:48 -0500
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-04 08:29 +0000
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-02 09:58 -0400
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Fredrik Jonson <fredrik@jonson.org> - 2013-03-02 14:46 +0000
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-03-02 07:11 -0800
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 21:55 -0500
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-03-06 09:07 -0800
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-06 20:13 -0500
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 21:47 -0500
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2013-03-03 21:57 -0500
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 22:08 -0500
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-03 23:11 -0400
          Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-06 20:15 -0500
            Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-07 05:08 -0400
              Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-07 11:42 -0500
  Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 21:45 -0500
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-04 05:53 -0400
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-06 20:10 -0500
        Writing ones one Annotation processor (was: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc...) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-07 02:17 +0100
          Re: Writing ones one Annotation processor Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-06 20:36 -0500
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-07 06:39 -0400
          Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-07 11:41 -0500
            Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-07 20:28 -0400
              Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-07 21:24 -0500
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-08 05:49 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-08 12:20 +0000
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2013-03-08 12:06 -0600
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-08 20:44 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 18:07 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-11 23:27 +0100
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 18:33 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-11 21:12 -0300
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 20:24 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-11 21:38 -0300
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 20:58 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-03-13 08:04 +0100
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 17:57 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-03-11 16:46 -0700
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 20:27 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 17:54 -0400

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