Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #22820

Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc...

From	Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc...
References	(3 earlier) <5137e8ff$0$32109$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <J7_Zs.1888$Nl5.1682@newsfe07.iad> <5138c335$0$32115$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <bha_s.144345$Hq1.140339@newsfe23.iad> <51394bc2$0$32104$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
Message-ID	<1vi_s.66442$mC2.13335@newsfe29.iad> (permalink)
Organization	Public Usenet Newsgroup Access
Date	2013-03-08 05:49 -0400

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On 03/07/2013 10:24 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 3/7/2013 7:28 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>> On 03/07/2013 12:41 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 3/7/2013 5:39 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>>> My next big Java-space web app development effort is going to be
>>>> shifting away from JSF. I've been using the framework for 8 or 9 years,
>>>> and I'm unhappy with it.
>> [ SNIP ]
>>>
>>> Sounds as if you may like RoR.
>>>
>>> :-)
>>
>> Maybe, maybe not. When I said that my web work was basically mostly or
>> all CRUD, I was overly simplifying. While ultimately it *is* mostly
>> CRUD, there are always business rules and workflow associated with what
>> CRUD is going to happen, so the pages may be complex and not just
>> straightforward list+add+delete+edit RoR-type pages. Mind you, I only
>> looked at RoR once and casually about 3 or 4 years ago.
>>
>> It might be more accurate for me to say that the web page actions are
>> always CRUD-like, they are affecting state of something. That might be
>> session state, view state, JPA extended state, or database state (upon a
>> commit). Doesn't really matter what state it is.
>>
>> But the generated HTML might be - often is - quite complex. Not
>> predictable by any scaffolding type system.
>>
>> What I'm getting at is, it seems to me like everyone out there who built
>> a web framework got fixated on the idea that you have to have page
>> templates *and* code behind. Different artifacts altogether, and you
>> always need two or more to implement a delivered page. And considering
>> how tightly bound these pairs of template + codebehind usually are, why
>> do we have two artifacts anyway? Separation of concerns? No, the things
>> are inextricably bound together. Ease of development or maintenance? Not
>> bloody likely - you're forever jumping between at least two source files
>> to get things done.
>>
>> So why not just have a single code artifact that implements a page?
>> That's one of my arguments.
>
> It is possible to write plain JSP or PHP with all the code embedded in
> the page.
>
> It is usually not considered good, because you mix the UI layout
> and the code.
>
> Web frameworks and desktop frameworks (WPF, JavaFX) have been
> moving away from that for years.
>
> But the benefit of the separation builds on an assumption that
> they will be modified independently - potentially by different teams.

That's right, that's the expressed reason for this kind of split.

> That may make sense in large public facing web sites.
>
> But in an admin web GUI for some business app exposing some basic CRUD
> functionality, then it will often be the same person modifying both at
> the same time.

As you noted, there is a class of web apps where different people 
develop and maintain presentation artifacts, and other people work on 
code. Often graphics designers are involved, a full-blown CMS is in 
play, etc etc.

But there are also a great number of business apps where, as you noted 
again, it is the same people creating and modifying everything. All 
developers. There's no advantage - to me, anyway - of having a separate 
page template, and it's actually a hindrance. I gain nothing in 
visualization from having the XHTML template, since it often deviates 
from the rendered output significantly enough that you have to run the 
app and view in the browser anyhow.

> I just have a feeling that you will not be happy with an
> all code embedded solution either.

Never know until you try. :-)

>>> Or if you want to stick in the Java world (not counting
>>> RoR with JRuby) one of:
>>> * Spring Roo
>>> * Myclipse Spring MVC scaffolding
>>> * Myclipse GWT Spring scaffolding
>>>
>>> Disclaimer: I have never used any of these, so I have no idea how
>>> good or bad they are.
>>>
>> I still need to do a lot of research. I am not sure anyone has produced
>> what I am looking for.
>
> That will depend on how perfect a match you are looking for.
>
> Arne

If it's all code I'll at least take a look. If it uses separate page 
templates then it's invariably same-old, same-old. But it doesn't 
otherwise have to be a perfect fit.

AHS

Thread

Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-01 22:34 -0400
  Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-02 04:00 +0100
  Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-02 00:13 -0400
  Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2013-03-01 22:11 -0800
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-02 08:57 +0000
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 21:48 -0500
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-04 08:29 +0000
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-02 09:58 -0400
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Fredrik Jonson <fredrik@jonson.org> - 2013-03-02 14:46 +0000
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-03-02 07:11 -0800
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 21:55 -0500
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-03-06 09:07 -0800
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-06 20:13 -0500
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 21:47 -0500
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2013-03-03 21:57 -0500
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 22:08 -0500
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-03 23:11 -0400
          Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-06 20:15 -0500
            Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-07 05:08 -0400
              Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-07 11:42 -0500
  Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-03 21:45 -0500
    Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-04 05:53 -0400
      Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-06 20:10 -0500
        Writing ones one Annotation processor (was: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc...) Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-07 02:17 +0100
          Re: Writing ones one Annotation processor Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-06 20:36 -0500
        Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-07 06:39 -0400
          Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-07 11:41 -0500
            Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-07 20:28 -0400
              Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-07 21:24 -0500
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-08 05:49 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-08 12:20 +0000
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2013-03-08 12:06 -0600
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-08 20:44 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 18:07 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-11 23:27 +0100
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 18:33 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-11 21:12 -0300
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 20:24 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-11 21:38 -0300
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 20:58 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-03-13 08:04 +0100
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 17:57 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-03-11 16:46 -0700
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 20:27 -0400
                Re: Mini-rant on Java REST (JAX-RS), JSON, XML, JAXB etc... Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-11 17:54 -0400

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