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Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java

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Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote in news:c083623a-05a8-
483e-86b9-4a3a243b185b@g25g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:

> On Oct 25, 11:48 am, saxo...@gmx.de wrote:
>> thanx for the replies. What I'm wondering about most is whether
>> typical Perl people out there in the companies are mentally awake and
>> will show interest in learning new things. That kind of question is a
>> bit tentative, I admit.
> 
> It's also something which we cannot answer.  In ignorance of the real
> pupils you have we can only offer speculation and prejudice.  That
> would only make things worse.  Better enter the training with an open
> mind and find out who they are and what they expect from the
> training.  Then adjust accordingly.
> 
Actually, it might be better if you found out what the person who has 
booked the students into the course wants. After years as a professional 
IT trainer, I can tell you that the students on the course aren't always 
there because they want to be. Typically, a manager has decided that they 
need to learn such-and-such and the student is not necessarily thrilled 
about it or even very interested in the subject at hand. Sometimes, the 
students' interests differ significantly from what their manager wants. 
Sometimes, the students are more-or-less in the dark: the new language 
they are enrolled to learn was not their idea and their management will 
not have necessarily given them much background on why they are going to 
learn it. It's possible that the students have simply been told that they 
need to learn it for some upcoming project. That means that what 
interests the students about the language may be at odds from what the 
manager wants them to know. For instance, students may be keen to know 
how to do something they do with their existing language while the 
manager may be putting them on this course so that they can learn 
something that the new language is better suited to doing. 

The cold hard reality is that your ultimate success as an instructor will 
be teaching them what the manager wants them to know, not what the 
students themselves are interested in. If you please the students but not 
the manager, you will not likely get the chance to teach for that 
customer again. If you please the manager by covering what he wants you 
to cover and the students have the expected level of proficiency when 
they get back to work, you will likely get further business from that 
company.  

>> My experience with SAP people was somewhat
>> negative there. SAP is a data maintenance system, basically a
>> programming layer on top of a SQL database with predefined business-
>> oriented modules for accounting, credit business, hr, stockkepping,
>> etc. The SAP programming language is somewhat an extension to SQL on
>> an Algol-68 like language level. Now, that was mean, but basically
>> correct.
>>
>> Now Perl is surely on a higher level than ABAP, but you can live a
>> quite life as long as you know how to convert data streams with Perl.
>> No more interest in computer science is required then to get that kind
>> of job done.
> 
> Unfortunately that seems to be the case for many Java programmers as
> well.  I do not think that attitude depends on programming language.
> Maybe it's the other way round (i.e. people with certain attitudes
> pick specific languages) but even that is speculation and won't help
> you because your group could be totally different.
> 
>> And that kind of people will not be able to get into
>> something like Java and all the tools and libraries where you need to
>> have an interest in computer science as such. Otherwise you ran mad,
>> because of all the things that pop up new every year and you then have
>> to learn as well.
> 
> CPAN is also quite large and I don't think that you can get away with
> only a few core library functions throughout your Perl life.
> 
> As I said: better find out who you are dealing with than try to create
> expectation and press real people into that frame.  Imagine this forum
> would agree that Perl programmers are stupid and dumb: you would be
> preoccupied and have insulted them already the very moment you enter
> classroom.  I do not think there would be a successful teaching and
> learning experience with such a start - at least it's a lot harder
> than otherwise.
>
I agree completely: don't go into the class assuming that the students 
are not very bright or motivated because that will just put everyone in 
an antagonistic mood. They may in fact turn out to be less than you hoped 
but I've only had that happen a very few times in hundreds of classes 
over the years and even those classes had more to do with the culture at 
that company. 
 
> In any case I believe it to be important to come to a common agreement
> on what the purpose of the course is.

I agree, provided that the manager who wants these students on the course 
is consulted for what he/she wants the students to learn. Bear in mind 
that some managers are not very technical themselves; they are, perhaps, 
professional project managers with little if any programming skills. 
Their input may be minimal as a result but SOMEONE in the company with 
programming skills is likely to be behind the push to offer the course 
you are teaching and they will likely be the best person to discuss the 
focus of the class with. If you can get that person involved in the 
planning of the course, you should be very successful in delivering what 
the students need.

>  It won't help if you want to
> teach CS topics but people are more interested in learning how to
> solve particular problems.

Agreed. Where possible, include practical hands-on exercises that are 
closely related to what students will actually need to do. Abstract 
theoretical knowledge like OO Concepts is still going to be necessary but 
don't dwell on that too long, especially at the expense of giving 
students some practical examples of how the theory is applied in the real 
world and some actual exercises for them to code that illustrate those 
points. 

>  If people are not interested to learn
> though, then teaching anything will be hard and you will first have to
> build up motivation.
> 
At that point, you have become, in effect, a high school teacher in front 
of a room full of disinterested, unmotivated students, not a trainer. 
Luckily it only rarely comes to that. Most people being paid to program 
are at least sufficient professional to make an effort to learn, even if 
they are a bit dubious of the particular course or subject they have been 
told to take by their employers. 


-- 
Ten-Blade 

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Thread

Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java saxo123@gmx.de - 2011-10-24 15:07 -0700
  Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java markspace <-@.> - 2011-10-24 16:10 -0700
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-05 22:16 -0400
  Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java William Colls <william.colls@rogers.com> - 2011-10-24 22:24 -0400
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-25 07:06 +0000
      Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Jim Gibson <jimsgibson@gmail.com> - 2011-10-25 10:03 -0700
        Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-10-25 20:00 -0700
          Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-26 20:59 +0000
  Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java saxo123@gmx.de - 2011-10-25 02:48 -0700
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-10-25 04:18 -0700
      Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Ten Blade <ten.blade@tenblade.com> - 2011-10-26 13:49 +0000
  Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java saxo123@gmx.de - 2011-10-26 00:52 -0700
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Wojtek <nowhere@a.com> - 2011-10-26 23:27 -0700
      Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java saxo123@gmx.de - 2011-10-27 00:58 -0700
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-10-27 08:07 -0700
      Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-10-27 10:18 -0700
  Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-10-26 08:35 -0700
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-26 21:51 +0100
      Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java RedGrittyBrick <RedGrittyBrick@spamweary.invalid> - 2011-10-27 11:32 +0100
        Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Jef <e70838@gmail.com> - 2011-10-27 05:45 -0700
        Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-10-27 10:28 -0700
  Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-26 21:54 +0100
  Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-10-26 20:45 -0500
    Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Jim Gibson <jimsgibson@gmail.com> - 2011-10-27 16:31 -0700
  Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-10-27 17:02 -0700
  Re: Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-10-27 17:07 -0700

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