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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #2848

Re: java.lang vs java.util

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On 4/4/2011 4:10 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In message<nKgmp.2643$0r7.2582@newsfe12.iad>, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>
>> On 11-04-04 01:05 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> In message<ct9mp.1376$YL5.219@newsfe05.iad>, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11-04-03 09:49 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message<dt6mp.2629$0r7.144@newsfe12.iad>, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not interested in a novice explanation like "I can solve this
>>>>>> problem like this in Python, and when I try to translate it
>>>>>> line-by-line into Java I just can't do it"
>>>>>
>>>>> Not that I ever asked for a “line-by-line” translation, but keep right
>>>>> on with your prevaricating strawmen, why don’t you.
>>>>
>>>> You've been quibbling about the inability to do things in Java more or
>>>> less like you can do them in Python, which is why I threw that in.
>>>
>>> Which reminds me, I’m still waiting for someone to show how they can do
>>> this
>>> <http://groups.google.co.nz/groups?selm=ik1en0$gng$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>
>>> better in Java.
>>
>> Until you provide a design document you may wait for a while.
>
> See, that’s what I mean by lack of agility. It’s not enough to figure out
> what the code does, you need some kind of specification document filled out
> in tedious detail and no doubt signed off in triplicate before you will
> write a single line of code.
>
> And they wonder who I’m referring to when I talk about “corporate code-
> cutter drones” ...

You will never get fluent in Java if you think Python code is a
reasonable specification for your Java code.

This is a problem I've seen many times in people moving from language to
language. Every language has its own idioms, its own ways of expressing
things. Translation from code in language X to code in language Y leads
to very stilted, awkward code in Y. In effect, the code is written in a
dialect of Y that contains only those features of Y that correspond
closely to features of X. Such a dialect can be very frustrating.

It is not unique to Python and Java. I've seen it, for example, in
people moving from assembly language to C. I expect it would happen to
someone who had got too locked in on Java who tried to write Python code
from Java code, rather than by finding out what the code is intended
to achieve.

I've sometimes had to try to reconstruct a specification from code, but
it is a messy process, liable to include things that are not required
and miss other requirements. Why do that, when there is someone who
presumably knows exactly what it is meant to do?

Having a design document other than the code itself does not mean
"filled out in tedious detail and no doubt signed off in triplicate". It
means having one at about the level of detail you would have had in your
own mind before writing the Python code.

I do not think that you will be happy with Java if your main criterion
for good code is short code. Java's main advantages to my mind are
readability, portability, and a tendency to catch typos at compile time.
It is not a compact language.

Patricia

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java.lang vs java.util Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-04-02 17:11 +1300
  Re: java.lang vs java.util Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-04-01 21:23 -0700
    Re: java.lang vs java.util Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-04-02 01:52 -0400
      Re: java.lang vs java.util Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-04-02 09:50 -0300
        Re: java.lang vs java.util David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2011-04-02 09:12 -0400
          Re: java.lang vs java.util Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-04-03 12:37 +1200
            Re: java.lang vs java.util David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2011-04-03 08:05 -0400
          Re: java.lang vs java.util Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-04-03 09:33 -0300
        Re: java.lang vs java.util "Mike Schilling" <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> - 2011-04-02 07:57 -0700
          Re: java.lang vs java.util Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-04-03 12:38 +1200
  Re: java.lang vs java.util Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-04-01 23:43 -0700
    Re: java.lang vs java.util Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-04-02 19:52 +1300
      Re: java.lang vs java.util David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2011-04-03 08:05 -0400
        Re: java.lang vs java.util Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-04-04 10:11 +1200
          Re: java.lang vs java.util Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-04-03 19:25 -0300
            Re: java.lang vs java.util Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-04-04 12:49 +1200
              Re: java.lang vs java.util Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-04-03 22:50 -0300
                Re: java.lang vs java.util Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-04-04 16:05 +1200
                Re: java.lang vs java.util Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-04-04 07:06 -0300
                Re: java.lang vs java.util Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-04-04 23:10 +1200
                Re: java.lang vs java.util Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2011-04-04 06:20 -0500
                Re: java.lang vs java.util rossum <rossum48@coldmail.com> - 2011-04-04 15:22 +0100
                Re: java.lang vs java.util Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-04-04 05:58 -0700
                Re: java.lang vs java.util Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-04-06 15:34 -0400
                Re: java.lang vs java.util rossum <rossum48@coldmail.com> - 2011-04-07 10:22 +0100
                Re: java.lang vs java.util David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2011-04-04 18:41 -0400
                Re: java.lang vs java.util Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-04-04 07:04 -0300
                Re: java.lang vs java.util Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-04-04 07:58 -0400
                Re: java.lang vs java.util David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca> - 2011-04-04 18:46 -0400
  Re: java.lang vs java.util Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-04-02 16:22 -0400

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