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Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ...

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On 11-06-02 07:42 PM, BGB wrote:
> On 6/2/2011 3:19 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>> On 11-06-02 06:21 PM, BGB wrote:
>>> On 6/2/2011 1:22 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>>> On 11-06-02 08:34 AM, Paul Cager wrote:
>>>>> On Jun 2, 11:42 am, Lawrence D'Oliveiro<l...@geek-
>>>>> central.gen.new_zealand>   wrote:
>>>>>> In message
>>>>>> <9b584a36-f160-4e01-8e2f-ca3f83f17...@x10g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cager wrote:
>>>>>>> It looks to be the standard 3-clause BSD license to me - that's a
>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> thing, isn't it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would if the code were worth copyrighting.
>>>>>
>>>>> You seem to misunderstand the difference between copyright and a
>>>>> license.
>>>>
>>>> Who's talking about a license? Oracle is attempting to copyright that
>>>> HelloWorld code. Strictly speaking they didn't even have to include
>>>> that
>>>> "Copyright (c) 1995, 2008, Oracle..." bit, but since they did their
>>>> intentions are very clear. They also refer to themselves as the
>>>> copyright holder a little bit further down the blurb.
>>>>
>>>> Everything about that boilerplate has to do with copyright.
>>>>
>>>
>>> but, it is worth noting a few things:
>>> the text appears to be a fairly standard 3-clause BSD-style license;
>>> it is generally considered to be proper withing FOSS circles to put such
>>> a notice in *every* source file, such that it remains clear at all
>>> points how the code in question is licensed.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_license
>>>
>>> note the section on the "New BSD License", which as may be noted, has
>>> very similar text and style (about the only differences I see is that
>>> Oracle inserted its name in the appropriate spots, labeled "<copyright
>>> holder>" in the aforementioned license).
>>>
>>> generally, an absence of such a notice is (implicitly) meant to imply
>>> that it owned by the original owner, with all rights reserved except
>>> under the permission of the original author, until 80 years following
>>> said author's death (under which point it goes into public domain).
>>>
>>> putting such a notice in a file thus states that a person is free to use
>>> said "hello world" program under the stated terms (which include copying
>>> and the creation of derivative works, ...). or effectively that the
>>> original author is waiving some of their legal rights.
>>>
>>> yes, one can argue that it is a little silly to bother with this for a
>>> "hello world" program, but there is no obvious malice or ill-intention
>>> on Oracle's part for having done so.
>>>
>> Again, not discussing licensing yet, copyright applies to *original*
>> works. Regardless of the exact mechanics of a copyright coming into
>> force in various jurisdictions, Oracle can NOT copyright HelloWorld in
>> any language, not to mention a bunch of other obvious and much-used code.
>>
>> I don't think they are malicious either. I simply think they have
>> ignorant lawyers and cowed developers.
>>
> 
> actually, it depends on how one defines "original".
> 
> AFAIK the usual working definition of original is that it was originally
> written by a certain person.
> 
> given a person can easily write out a hello world program without
> needing to go any copy code from any other source, it classifies as
> original (as opposed to a derived work, which would incorporate code
> from another source, say if one copy/pasted the "Hello World" string
> from another such example).
[ SNIP ]

"Original" for copyright means independent creative effort. There is
also, as you alluded to in another reply, a test of substantiality. The
Oracle "HelloWorld" snippet fails in its entirety for the substantiality
test.

Copying simply means copying. Keying in a psvm HelloWorld mantra from
memory is still copying, because precisely 99.99999 percent of all Java
developers have seen an example of it.

AHS

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And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-06-02 15:12 +1200
  Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Paul Cager <paul.cager@googlemail.com> - 2011-06-02 02:11 -0700
    Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-06-02 22:42 +1200
      Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Paul Cager <paul.cager@googlemail.com> - 2011-06-02 04:34 -0700
        Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-06-03 00:08 +1200
          Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Paul Cager <paul.cager@googlemail.com> - 2011-06-02 06:20 -0700
            Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-06-03 15:10 +1200
              Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-02 21:47 -0700
                Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-06-03 17:05 +1200
              Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-06-03 02:50 -0400
                Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-06-03 19:49 +1200
                Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-06-03 11:16 -0400
                Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-06-04 12:28 +1200
                Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-06-04 02:54 -0400
                Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-06-05 11:05 +1200
        Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-06-02 17:22 -0300
          Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-02 14:21 -0700
            Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-06-02 19:19 -0300
              Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-02 15:42 -0700
                Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-06-02 20:14 -0300
                Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-06-03 17:07 +1200
                Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-03 01:01 -0700
              Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-02 15:56 -0700
                Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-06-02 22:21 -0400
                Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-02 21:36 -0700
                Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-06-03 19:48 +1200
              Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... rossum <rossum48@coldmail.com> - 2011-06-03 00:33 +0100
            Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-06-03 17:06 +1200
          Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Paul Cager <paul.cager@googlemail.com> - 2011-06-02 17:50 -0700
            Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-06-03 15:10 +1200
              Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-06-03 18:15 +0200
            Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-06-03 06:56 -0300
              Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Paul Cager <paul.cager@googlemail.com> - 2011-06-03 04:21 -0700
                Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-06-04 12:26 +1200
    Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered “Hello World” Program ... BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-02 03:53 -0700
  Re: And The Award For Most Legally-Encumbered ?Hello World? Program ... Steve Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net> - 2011-06-02 11:00 -0700

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