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Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators

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Brixomatic wrote:
> Lew wrote:
>> First of all, my project lead doesn't tell me to skipnullchecks.  If they do, I ignore them.
> > If they insist, I tell them to stuff it.  What a ridiculous concept.
> 
> Sometimes I doubt that you have worked in a lot of brownfield
> projects, because that is far off what I have experienced.

Sorry, "brownfield project"?  

I've stepped in a lot of piles, if that's what you mean.

> I've had numerous situations where I discussed an issue and was told
> to: "Just do it the simple way" or "not cause an Exception, but return
> no result instead", because the customer would not complain as much.
> As a programmer I hate it, but life is no walk in the park.

Huh?  How does the customer *ever* see an exception?  That's a specious argument because you don't let customers see exceptions anyway.

I really don't understand what you're talking about.  Checking for null, or handling null exceptions, has NOTHING whatsoever to do with letting a customer see the exception, because you NEVER let the customer see the exception.  That's _why_ you handle it!

Please explain yourself better.  I see "prevent exceptions from ruining the program" as a mandate to handle them.  You apparently see this as a mandate for ignoring them, which is the shortest path to ensuring that the customer sees them.  What do I misunderstand here?

> > How unprofessional can one be?
> 
> > A 'NullPointerException', like other runtime exception, evidences a programming error.
> > You just spoke up in favor of deliberately programming bugs into the code.  Stupid, stupid
> > idea.  Please do not work on any project I care about.
> 
> Reality is that I dislike to deliberately introduce a bug to my code,
> but that sometimes people get forced to do so. That said: A bug is a
> bug, whether it's an NPE or another kind of failure in the program.
> NPEs are often easier to track down, that's why I favor them. Alas it
> is not always my decision.

I cry "shenanigans" on that pitiful excuse.

> > The overhead of checking data validity (e.g., non-nullinputs to a method) is far, far lower when first coding then it is later when you try to figure out all the places where you stupidly decided to leave out the checks.
> 
> I don't disagree at all.
> 
> >  No one who knows software development should be so stupid as to suggest deliberately increasing the cost and reducing the correctness of a program like that.
> 
> No one "should" but reality is: Some are.
> 
> > Good managers work to reduce risk and cost.
> 
> Not everyone is a good manager but that said: Good managers aren't
> dogmatic either. If the risk is low and the cost is great, a good
> manager may rightfully decide to take the risk.

Which has nothing to do with trapping and eliminating NPEs.  The risk there is high and the overhead to deal with it is low.

So the decision to ignore the issue and let it reach the customer is not rational.

> > The point is that you catch such exceptions as early as possible.
> 
> Wrong! Absolute rubbish, sorry. You catch exceptions where best
> handled and that may well be further up the call stack. It always
> depends on the situation, there is no such golden hammer for exception
> handling like "as early as possible".

Sorry, you're mistaken.

"As early as possible" means "not any earlier", so you aren't disagreeing with me.

> I tend to treat the exception handling mechanism as an alternative
> execution path that has preferably one destination, not a series
> potholes fixed with small nets to tumble over fall into and crawl out
> again while running backwards until finally giving up or recovering
> somewhere. If it crashes, I tend to let it bubble up to a point where
> I see a good way to handle it, that also avoid clutter.

That's a very colorful description, full of analogy and devoid of engineering content, so I cannot respond except to applaud your imagery.

-- 
Lew

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toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-11-13 09:17 -0800
  Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-11-13 17:59 +0000
    Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-11-14 10:28 -0800
      Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2011-11-14 10:55 -0800
        Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-11-15 09:04 -0800
        Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators kensi <kensi_kensington@zoonoses.de> - 2011-11-16 12:50 -0500
          Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2011-11-16 13:47 -0800
            Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-11-16 16:09 -0800
              Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-16 17:02 -0800
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-11-16 17:31 -0800
              Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-11-17 22:51 +0000
            Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Paul Cager <paul.cager@googlemail.com> - 2011-11-17 02:43 -0800
              Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Tim Slattery <Slattery_T@bls.gov> - 2011-11-17 08:57 -0500
              Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2011-11-18 16:05 -0800
            Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators kensi <kensi_kensington@zoonoses.de> - 2011-11-17 21:21 -0500
            Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2011-11-20 13:29 +0100
              Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-20 08:23 -0800
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Brixomatic <wanja.gayk@googlemail.com> - 2011-11-21 04:39 -0800
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2011-11-21 11:25 -0800
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-11-25 21:44 -0500
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2011-11-26 15:34 -0800
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-21 14:20 -0800
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-11-21 19:22 -0800
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-21 22:45 -0800
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2011-12-10 12:15 +0100
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators ilAn <idonot@wantspam.net> - 2011-12-10 19:47 +0200
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-12-10 14:57 -0400
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators ilAn <nosuch@email.com> - 2011-12-11 10:46 +0200
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-12-12 07:42 -0400
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators ilAn <nosuch@email.com> - 2011-12-12 16:06 +0200
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 02:01 +1100
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2011-12-17 12:30 +0100
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2011-12-17 12:30 +0100
            Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-11-22 19:47 -0800
          Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-16 14:02 -0800
            Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-11-17 08:42 +0000
          Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Nigel Wade <nmw-news@ion.le.ac.uk> - 2011-11-17 15:09 +0000
            Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators kensi <kensi_kensington@zoonoses.de> - 2011-11-17 21:22 -0500
          Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators spk <jhic@speak.invalid> - 2011-11-17 13:40 -0400
            Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-17 09:56 -0800
              Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators spk <jhic@speak.invalid> - 2011-11-17 14:00 -0400
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-11-17 19:23 +0000
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators spk <jhic@speak.invalid> - 2011-11-17 16:35 -0400
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-17 13:50 -0800
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators spk <jhic@speak.invalid> - 2011-11-17 18:48 -0400
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators thoolen <tholen01@gmail.com> - 2011-11-17 18:33 -0800
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-17 13:48 -0800
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators "Joe Attardi" <jattard1@gmail.com> - 2011-11-18 12:20 +0100
                Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-11-18 15:21 -0500
            Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators thoolen <tholen01@gmail.com> - 2011-11-17 18:31 -0800
    Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2011-11-20 13:14 +0100
      Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-20 08:29 -0800
        Re: toward null-safe cookie cutter Comparators Brixomatic <wanja.gayk@googlemail.com> - 2011-11-21 04:03 -0800

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