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No Jobs for new computer guys :-(

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  No Jobs for new computer guys :-( Kevin Doyle <kfrdoyle@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 11:35 -0700
    Re: No Jobs for new computer guys :-( Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 16:34 -0700
      Re: No Jobs for new computer guys :-( Kevin Doyle <kfrdoyle@gmail.com> - 2012-08-15 14:01 -0700
        Re: No Jobs for new computer guys :-( Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-08-15 14:17 -0700
          Re: No Jobs for new computer guys :-( Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-08-15 14:31 -0700
          Re: No Jobs for new computer guys :-( Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-08-15 19:08 -0700
            Re: No Jobs for new computer guys :-( Kevin Doyle <kfrdoyle@gmail.com> - 2012-08-16 07:50 -0700
              Re: No Jobs for new computer guys :-( Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-08-16 08:47 -0700

#2008 — No Jobs for new computer guys :-(

Hi all,
I was wondering if there are other guys out there who are a year or two out of university and still looking for software type jobs? I have a degree and masters in IT and still I find that companies are only hiring experienced guys with 5+ years even though the company advertises for "graduates"! 
Where are good countries to get jobs in? I'm in Ireland and really bad now! :-(
Cheer,
K. 

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#2010

On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 11:35:00 AM UTC-7, Kevin Doyle wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I was wondering if there are other guys out there who are a year or two out of university and still looking for software type jobs? I have a degree and masters in IT and still I find that companies are only hiring experienced guys with 5+ years even though the company advertises for "graduates"! 
> 
> Where are good countries to get jobs in? I'm in Ireland and really bad now! :-(

Lots of folks hiring in the U.S., especially in hotbeds like Silicon Valley, DC/Baltimore, 
and perhaps Research Triangle Park, Redmond, New York City, ...

I live in the Silicon Valley area of California and there is mad hiring going on here
for computer programmers, with a special category in many companies for recent 
graduates.

You should be prepared to show major competency in algorithms, various languages 
and major concepts like data mining and logging.

-- 
Lew

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#2012

On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:34:02 AM UTC+1, Lew wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 11:35:00 AM UTC-7, Kevin Doyle wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> 
> > 
> 
> > I was wondering if there are other guys out there who are a year or two out of university and still looking for software type jobs? I have a degree and masters in IT and still I find that companies are only hiring experienced guys with 5+ years even though the company advertises for "graduates"! 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Where are good countries to get jobs in? I'm in Ireland and really bad now! :-(
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of folks hiring in the U.S., especially in hotbeds like Silicon Valley, DC/Baltimore, 
> 
> and perhaps Research Triangle Park, Redmond, New York City, ...
> 
> 
> 
> I live in the Silicon Valley area of California and there is mad hiring going on here
> 
> for computer programmers, with a special category in many companies for recent 
> 
> graduates.
> 
> 
> 
> You should be prepared to show major competency in algorithms, various languages 
> 
> and major concepts like data mining and logging.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Lew

Thanks for that,
Wow most of those topics are not covered in university training, at least not in the university I attended! Data mining and Algorithms are usually the reserve of a PhD or higher. The Comp Sci education system in the USA must be miles ahead of  what we have in Ireland/Europe??
Cheers again,
Kevin. 

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#2013

On 8/15/2012 2:01 PM, Kevin Doyle wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:34:02 AM UTC+1, Lew wrote:
...
>> I live in the Silicon Valley area of California and there is mad
>> hiring going on here
>>
>> for computer programmers, with a special category in many companies
>> for recent
>>
>> graduates.
>>
>>
>>
>> You should be prepared to show major competency in algorithms,
>> various languages
>>
>> and major concepts like data mining and logging.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Lew
>
> Thanks for that, Wow most of those topics are not covered in
> university training, at least not in the university I attended! Data
> mining and Algorithms are usually the reserve of a PhD or higher. The
> Comp Sci education system in the USA must be miles ahead of  what we
> have in Ireland/Europe?? Cheers again, Kevin.
>

I would expect at least algorithms to be covered at some level in a
first degree course, even if it is not called that and is scattered
around other courses, such as data structures.

It is very important to understand that university education is just a
start on learning how to learn. In addition to the sorts of topics Lew
mentioned, universities tend not to give students the feeling of working
on a large project.

Have you considered joining an open source project? That can build
practical experience, a portfolio of bugs you have fixed and features
you have implemented, and contacts that may help you find a job, just as
a job would.

Patricia

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#2014

Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> Kevin Doyle wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
> ...
> 
>>> I live in the Silicon Valley area of California and there is mad
>>> hiring going on here
>>> for computer programmers, with a special category in many companies
>>> for recent graduates.
> 
>>> You should be prepared to show major competency in algorithms,
>>> various languages
>>> and major concepts like data mining and logging.

>> Thanks for that, Wow most of those topics are not covered in
>> university training, at least not in the university I attended! Data
>> mining and Algorithms are usually the reserve of a PhD or higher. The

As Patricia suggested, you did likely get some algorithms training if you 
took more than one computer programming course. If they taught you how 
to search a linked list or a tree, for example, that's algorithms.

Data mining is rather advanced, and I don't mean you have to know that 
area specifically. But the competitive edge for new graduates is to know 
a little bit more than what they taught you at university. Anyone can 
graduate knowing only what they taught you; it takes the better 
candidate to extend their learning past that.

Your competition has been studying that stuff, no doubt. They aren't 
waiting for a professor to show them the way.

It doesn't have to be data mining as such, but a good familiarity with
databases generally, whether relational like Postgres or key-value 
like NoSQL or map-reduce like Hadoop, helps. It's just that the great 
majority of programs need a data store, so dealing with data stores 
is a fundamental programming skill.

I bought this book, and I don't often buy books due to the plethora 
of free information on the 'Net:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_Algorithms>

It's the seminal work on the subject. 

>> Comp Sci education system in the USA must be miles ahead of  what we
>> have in Ireland/Europe?? 

They teach us to use but one question mark to indicate an interrogative.

Kidding aside, I don't know how the system is in the USA except by 
interacting with interns and recent graduates at work.

I certainly don't know how to compare it to that in the UK or Ireland or 
the rest of Europe, or anywhere else for that matter.

But I'll bet it's the same here as there - the candidates who get hired 
are the ones who do more than the minimum learning at school.

> I would expect at least algorithms to be covered at some level in a
> first degree course, even if it is not called that and is scattered
> around other courses, such as data structures.

Otherwise they aren't teaching computer science.

> It is very important to understand that university education is just a
> start on learning how to learn. In addition to the sorts of topics Lew
> mentioned, universities tend not to give students the feeling of working
> on a large project.

It's also true of the myriads of topics I didn't mention.

> Have you considered joining an open source project? That can build
> practical experience, a portfolio of bugs you have fixed and features
> you have implemented, and contacts that may help you find a job, just as
> a job would.

This is in line with doing more than the minimum. Nothing substitutes for 
practical experience.

Writing your own programs privately is good, too. I have written several Java 
EE programs over the years, for example, that have never left my computer. 
But I learned servlets, JPA, configuring application servers (ASes) like Glassfish, 
JSP, XHTML/Facelets, and much more on my own by building applications, 
sometimes the same one in more than one way to compare frameworks or 
idioms.

University, as Patricia says, "is just a start on learning how to learn." You need 
to practice on your own just as with any art.

-- 
Lew

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#2015

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:17:00 -0700, Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org>
wrote:

[snip]

>I would expect at least algorithms to be covered at some level in a
>first degree course, even if it is not called that and is scattered
>around other courses, such as data structures.

     In two British Columbian unis, I have seen an algorithms and data
structures course positioned just into second year.  First year has
first programming, and the A&D course is a prereq for practically
everything else later.

     My alma mater allowed one to do the course later in one's
studies, but it was required to graduate in compsci.  One instructor
told me that the course had a high (60%?) failure rate.

     It is an important course.

>It is very important to understand that university education is just a
>start on learning how to learn. In addition to the sorts of topics Lew
>mentioned, universities tend not to give students the feeling of working
>on a large project.

     There are projects courses, but even these are not dealing with
big systems IME.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#2017

On Thursday, August 16, 2012 3:08:56 AM UTC+1, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:17:00 -0700, Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org>
> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 
> 
> >I would expect at least algorithms to be covered at some level in a
> 
> >first degree course, even if it is not called that and is scattered
> 
> >around other courses, such as data structures.
> 
> 
> 
>      In two British Columbian unis, I have seen an algorithms and data
> 
> structures course positioned just into second year.  First year has
> 
> first programming, and the A&D course is a prereq for practically
> 
> everything else later.
> 
> 
> 
>      My alma mater allowed one to do the course later in one's
> 
> studies, but it was required to graduate in compsci.  One instructor
> 
> told me that the course had a high (60%?) failure rate.
> 
> 
> 
>      It is an important course.
> 
> 
> 
> >It is very important to understand that university education is just a
> 
> >start on learning how to learn. In addition to the sorts of topics Lew
> 
> >mentioned, universities tend not to give students the feeling of working
> 
> >on a large project.
> 
> 
> 
>      There are projects courses, but even these are not dealing with
> 
> big systems IME.
> 
> 
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> 
> Gene Wirchenko
Thank you for your reply's Lew, Patricia & Gene!
I guess we did cover algorithms in 3rd year of the course. It was just the programming side of it though. I'm following the MIT Open courseWare videos "Intro to Algorithms" http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-046j-introduction-to-algorithms-sma-5503-fall-2005/video-lectures/

They cover the theory too, its so much more enjoyable to get a mathematical analysis of an algorithm.

I have started two open source projects http://code.google.com/p/preachan/ and
http://code.google.com/p/thales-goal-keeper-radar-sim/

I also have an agile tutorial youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/itgalore


I think they are basic enough at the moment. It takes me a long time to solve problems in my head such has how the architecture should come together, this is due to my lack of experience though. I keep plugging away at them most days but it seems slow; I know a lot but there is so much to learn!

Maybe I will get noticed one the days and get hired! :-)
Cheers
Kevin.
    

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#2018

On 8/16/2012 7:50 AM, Kevin Doyle wrote:
...
> I have started two open source projects http://code.google.com/p/preachan/ and
> http://code.google.com/p/thales-goal-keeper-radar-sim/
...

I suggested joining an open source project, not starting one.

Starting your own project may be fun if you have spare time, but unless
you have identified a serious unmet need, and are very lucky, it is
unlikely to get you noticed or hired. There are far too many
one-programmer zero-user open source projects. Are your projects
attracting users, preferably users who are likely to have programming
jobs available? If not, they are a hobby, not career building.

Consider the following process:

1. Pick a type of programming you would like to do, and that is
available where you live, or in an area to which you could move.

2. Find the most important open source infrastructure projects related
to, and used in, that type of programming. You are looking for
well-established projects with expert, experienced programmers already
working on them, and many organizations depending on them.

3. Join one of those projects.

In a tight job market, who you know matters. The established experts on
a piece of infrastructure are people who get asked whether they know of
a good junior programmer who might be looking for a job. The more they
see your name on bug fixes and useful contributions to discussions the
more likely they are to think of you in that situation.

Also, mentioning an open source project on your resume will be far more
effective if it is one that the hiring manager knows about.

Patricia

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