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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #12206 > unrolled thread
| Started by | quiet_lad <gavcomedy@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2012-05-15 23:27 -0700 |
| Last post | 2012-05-18 22:58 -0700 |
| Articles | 18 on this page of 158 — 33 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.forth
I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to quiet_lad <gavcomedy@gmail.com> - 2012-05-15 23:27 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2012-05-16 17:50 +1000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailntt.cmm> - 2012-05-16 06:51 -0400
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-16 07:59 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-16 09:28 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailntt.cmm> - 2012-05-17 04:08 -0400
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-16 22:22 -1000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-05-17 11:43 +0200
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailntt.cmm> - 2012-05-17 10:22 -0400
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-05-17 17:03 +0200
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-05-18 01:15 +0200
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailntt.cmm> - 2012-05-17 19:19 -0400
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-05-18 12:40 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-05-18 00:17 +0200
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to vandys@vsta.org - 2012-05-17 16:02 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-05-17 18:08 +0200
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to vandys@vsta.org - 2012-05-17 16:58 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it to Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-05-17 19:03 +0200
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-17 12:27 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to vandys@vsta.org - 2012-05-17 18:52 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-17 18:18 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-18 01:39 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-18 04:50 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-18 04:40 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2012-05-18 15:15 +0300
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-18 08:02 -1000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-17 12:40 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-17 18:32 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-18 01:45 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-19 11:28 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-05-17 21:38 +0100
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to vandys@vsta.org - 2012-05-17 21:17 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-05-18 09:41 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-18 04:55 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-05-18 13:50 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-05-18 03:24 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-18 06:10 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailntt.cmm> - 2012-05-18 08:10 -0400
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-05-18 05:57 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-18 08:14 -1000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-05-18 10:01 -0700
VFX code quality (was: I beleive that forth could supplant ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-18 12:58 +0000
Re: VFX code quality Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-18 09:43 -0500
Re: VFX code quality anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-19 10:54 +0000
Re: VFX code quality Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-19 11:43 -0500
Re: VFX code quality anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-22 08:26 +0000
Re: VFX code quality Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-22 03:52 -0500
Re: VFX code quality Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-22 04:02 -0500
Re: VFX code quality anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-22 09:25 +0000
Re: VFX code quality Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-05-30 23:39 +0200
Re: VFX code quality anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-31 15:07 +0000
Re: VFX code quality Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-05-31 20:24 +0200
Re: VFX code quality (was: I beleive that forth could supplant ...) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-05-18 15:25 +0000
Re: VFX code quality (was: I beleive that forth could supplant ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-19 11:31 +0000
Re: VFX code quality (was: I beleive that forth could supplant ...) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-05-20 17:41 +0200
Re: VFX code quality Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-20 12:49 -0500
Re: VFX code quality Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-20 11:43 -0700
Re: VFX code quality "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-20 14:01 -1000
Re: VFX code quality Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-20 19:10 -0700
Re: VFX code quality "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-20 17:05 -1000
Re: VFX code quality Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-20 20:38 -0700
Re: VFX code quality "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-20 21:37 -1000
Re: VFX code quality Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-21 01:27 -0700
Re: VFX code quality m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2012-05-21 01:52 -0700
Re: VFX code quality Ecki <ecki@intershop.de> - 2012-05-21 11:06 +0200
Re: VFX code quality mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-05-21 20:34 +0200
Re: VFX code quality Ecki <ecki@intershop.de> - 2012-05-22 08:54 +0200
Re: VFX code quality anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-21 14:36 +0000
Re: VFX code quality mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-05-21 20:33 +0200
Re: VFX code quality Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-21 04:29 -0500
Re: VFX code quality Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-21 08:39 -0700
Re: VFX code quality Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-21 15:22 -0500
Re: VFX code quality Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-22 12:47 -0700
Re: VFX code quality "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-22 11:25 -1000
Re: VFX code quality Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-23 03:19 -0500
Re: VFX code quality Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-24 22:51 -0700
Re: VFX code quality Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-24 23:16 -0700
Re: VFX code quality Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201205.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-05-23 17:36 +0200
Re: VFX code quality Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-05-21 12:57 -0400
Re: VFX code quality "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-21 08:42 -1000
Re: VFX code quality Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-05-21 19:41 -0400
Re: VFX code quality Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-21 21:53 -0700
Re: VFX code quality Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-05-22 07:10 -0400
Re: VFX code quality "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-21 08:36 -1000
Re: VFX code quality Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-21 21:46 -0700
Re: VFX code quality "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-21 20:30 -1000
Re: VFX code quality David Kuehling <dvdkhlng@gmx.de> - 2012-05-22 14:06 +0200
Re: VFX code quality Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-05-22 08:59 -0400
FP locals (was: VFX code quality) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-22 13:39 +0000
Re: FP locals Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-05-22 14:03 -0400
Re: FP locals (was: VFX code quality) C G Montgomery <cgm@physics.utoledo.edu> - 2012-05-22 18:09 -0400
Re: FP locals (was: VFX code quality) Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2012-05-23 03:47 -0700
Re: FP locals (was: VFX code quality) "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-05-26 21:03 +1000
Re: FP locals (was: VFX code quality) Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2012-05-26 04:40 -0700
Re: FP locals (was: VFX code quality) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-05-26 18:27 +0200
Re: FP locals (was: VFX code quality) Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2012-05-26 12:55 -0700
Re: FP locals (was: VFX code quality) BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-26 14:54 -0700
Re: FP locals (was: VFX code quality) Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2012-05-26 22:02 -0700
Re: FP locals (was: VFX code quality) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-05-27 08:50 +0200
Re: FP locals (was: VFX code quality) Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2012-05-27 05:26 -0700
Re: VFX code quality BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-22 09:04 -0700
Re: VFX code quality "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-05-21 09:55 +0200
Re: VFX code quality Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-21 01:22 -0700
Re: VFX code quality "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-05-21 14:19 +0200
Re: VFX code quality Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-22 12:33 -0700
Re: VFX code quality "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-05-22 23:14 +0200
Re: VFX code quality mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-05-21 20:31 +0200
Re: VFX code quality Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-21 15:17 -0500
Re: VFX code quality BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-21 13:50 -0700
Re: VFX code quality BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-21 16:47 -0700
Re: VFX code quality "Harry Vaderchi" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2012-05-22 09:57 +0100
Re: VFX code quality BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-22 04:39 -0700
Re: VFX code quality mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-05-23 20:25 +0200
Re: VFX code quality BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-23 13:47 -0700
Re: VFX code quality humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2012-05-21 20:23 +0000
Re: VFX code quality BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-20 20:22 -0700
Re: VFX code quality Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-05-21 10:57 +0000
Re: VFX code quality Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-05-21 01:35 +0200
Re: VFX code quality Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-20 22:44 -0700
Re: VFX code quality Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-20 22:53 -0700
Re: VFX code quality Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-21 04:32 -0500
Re: VFX code quality "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-21 08:44 -1000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-20 00:58 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-05-20 15:09 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailntt.cmm> - 2012-05-18 07:20 -0400
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-18 10:22 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailntt.cmm> - 2012-05-18 22:09 -0400
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-19 04:20 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-05-19 13:19 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-17 18:33 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-18 01:49 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-18 07:59 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-18 10:32 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-05-20 17:24 +0200
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-20 15:43 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-20 16:03 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-20 16:34 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-20 17:02 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-21 04:46 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-05-21 08:33 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-21 12:10 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-21 04:40 -0500
address units (was: I beleive that forth could supplant ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-21 14:40 +0000
Re: address units Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-21 10:07 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-05-21 10:59 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-05-21 14:22 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-05-18 00:43 +0200
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to vandys@vsta.org - 2012-05-17 23:10 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-05-17 19:24 -0400
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-05-17 18:38 -0500
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-05-17 22:30 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-05-17 10:59 -0700
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Jan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk> - 2012-05-20 13:14 +0100
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2012-05-18 11:46 +1000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-05-17 20:10 -1000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Arnold Doray <invalid@invalid.com> - 2012-05-18 10:32 +0000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2012-05-18 21:27 +1000
Re: I beleive that forth could supplant ruby and perl and python if it wanted to Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-05-18 22:58 -0700
Page 8 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8]
| From | BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-21 12:10 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <06260c07-2a05-43a9-99e4-896792d72050@s9g2000pbc.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #12347 |
On May 21, 11:33 am, Paul Rubin <no.em...@nospam.invalid> wrote: > Andrew Haley <andre...@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes: > > Java uses bytes (which are what Forth calls pchars) and chars (which > > are what Forth calls xchars). It's no different; you're just arguing > > about what things are called. > > Hmm, ok. There are some operations that really do operate on characters > rather than bytes, but in Forth I guess not that many. Yes, for large character set implementations, XC-SIZE XC@+ XC!+ XC!+? XC, XKEY XEMIT and optionally -TRAILING-GARBAGE XHOLD XC-WIDTH EKEY>XCHAR CHAR [CHAR] ... and a few more on addresses referencing characters, but as characters are an integral number of chars, so many operations on strings of characters are also equally operations on strings of general characters when its length is a size in chars rather than a count of characters. AFAIU, that's how large character set characters fit into the string macro functions without requiring special provision.
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-21 04:40 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <S6-dnQD6BcQSkCfSnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #12316 |
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes: >>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes: >>>>> This makes the, very common, assumption that a character is one >>>>> address unit wide. >>>> Yes. Elsewhere lies madness. ... >> Well, hold on. In ANS Forth, C@ and C! access a character, whatever >> size that character happens to be. > > Do those contradict each other? The first quote says that a char is one > address unit (i.e. 1 byte). A byte, not necessarily an address unit. C@ and C! address the smallest accessible unit of storage, which must be large enough to hold a (primitive) character. The smallest accessible unit of storage is not necessarily one address unit: consider nybble-addressed processors. > The second says it's whatever width. I'm saying that the current > trend is for "character" to mean unicode, i.e. multiple bytes. Yes, and these are what Forth 200x calls xchars. xchars are built from pchars. C@ and C! address pchars, i.e. bytes. C@ and C! do not address multibyte characters. Andrew.
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| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-21 14:40 +0000 |
| Subject | address units (was: I beleive that forth could supplant ...) |
| Message-ID | <2012May21.164032@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
| In reply to | #12338 |
Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>The smallest accessible unit of storage
>is not necessarily one address unit: consider nybble-addressed
>processors.
You are undermining your claim:
|> This makes the, very common, assumption that a character is one
|> address unit wide.
|
|Yes. Elsewhere lies madness.
I think we should forget about nibble-addressed processors for
portable code.
Nobody who has a Forth for such a CPU will use the portable code, and
the Forth systems for such CPUs will not be standard anyway, so it's
pointless to accomodate such CPUs in portable code.
So we should just write our programs to assume "1 chars=1 au", and
at some point put that as requirement on systems in the standard.
In the unlikely case that someone then wants to write a standard
system for a nibble-addressed machine, they have the option of
declaring an environmental restriction, or of implementing all memory
access words to deal with byte addresses, not nibble addresses
(somewhat like what BCPL does; it pretends all machines are
word-addressed, and the compilers on byte-addressed machines just
insert the equivalent of CELLS in front of every memory access).
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2011: http://www.euroforth.org/ef11/
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-21 10:07 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: address units |
| Message-ID | <dfidnT7KPJrcxyfSnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #12345 |
Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote: > Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes: >>The smallest accessible unit of storage >>is not necessarily one address unit: consider nybble-addressed >>processors. > > You are undermining your claim: > > |> This makes the, very common, assumption that a character is one > |> address unit wide. > | > |Yes. Elsewhere lies madness. No I'm not. That's the only use of CHARS that makes any sense. > I think we should forget about nibble-addressed processors for > portable code. I agree. CHARS should die. > Nobody who has a Forth for such a CPU will use the portable code, and > the Forth systems for such CPUs will not be standard anyway, so it's > pointless to accomodate such CPUs in portable code. > > So we should just write our programs to assume "1 chars=1 au", and > at some point put that as requirement on systems in the standard. Yes. Let's do it. Andrew.
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| From | Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-21 10:59 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <m4dd7b.mo5@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #12316 |
In article <7xfwauzd5p.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: >Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes: >>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes: >>>>> This makes the, very common, assumption that a character is one >>>>> address unit wide. >>>> Yes. Elsewhere lies madness. ... >> Well, hold on. In ANS Forth, C@ and C! access a character, whatever >> size that character happens to be. > >Do those contradict each other? The first quote says that a char is one >address unit (i.e. 1 byte). The second says it's whatever width. I'm >saying that the current trend is for "character" to mean unicode, >i.e. multiple bytes. Not negating the need to have byte access in almost all lowlevel code in micro controllers. Few people care to use something different from C@ to access bytes. Groetjes Albert -- -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-21 14:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2012May21.162226@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
| In reply to | #12316 |
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes:
>I'm
>saying that the current trend is for "character" to mean unicode,
>i.e. multiple bytes.
There are different encodings for Unicode, but the trend is to use
UTF-8. Now UTF-8 is a variable-width encoding, with each Unicode
character taking 1-4 bytes.
How does that relate to Forth? On byte-addressed machines C@, C!,
CHAR+ etc. deal with bytes (i.e., chars are bytes), and we have extra
words (the xchar wordset) for dealing with characters that may take
more than one byte. However, most of the time one deals with strings,
where the difference does not matter. E.g., TYPE outputs an UTF-8
string just as easily as an ASCII string.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2011: http://www.euroforth.org/ef11/
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-18 00:43 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <jp3uui$sae$1@online.de> |
| In reply to | #12234 |
Andrew Haley wrote: > over + swap ?do dup c@ i c! 1+ loop drop A bit simpler, use all idioms you have: : move ( src dest len -- ) bounds ?do count i c! loop drop ; Looks perfect, just 7 words. The c18 unfortunately has a small flaw, it can only increment A, not B. Otherwise, a move would be dead easy - one of the registers would have a @+, the other a !+ instruction (so in total, the number of instructions are the same). The incrementer is shared with the program counter incrementer, no big deal for hardware. : move push b! a! @b+ !+ unext ; I don't know why Chuck didn't do it that way. You need one register to auto-increment on store, the other to auto-increment on load, then you can do read-loops, write-loops, and copy-loops. Probably moving things within one core is not that useful, anyways, since there are only 64 words - if you move, you move from one core to the next, and that's possible - the move code is the same, just one of the two ports doesn't increment - it's an IO port. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | vandys@vsta.org |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-17 23:10 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <a1lerjF88iU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #12245 |
Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote: > A bit simpler, use all idioms you have: > : move ( src dest len -- ) > bounds ?do count i c! loop drop ; > Looks perfect, just 7 words. How about with the sum running? I just tried to retrofit it onto your example and it wasn't looking very good. > The c18 unfortunately has a small flaw, it can only increment A, not B. > Otherwise, a move would be dead easy - one of the registers would have a > @+, the other a !+ instruction (so in total, the number of instructions > are the same). The incrementer is shared with the program counter > incrementer, no big deal for hardware. I can't remember if he had any spare opcode values. And, as you say, a great mem copy on a 64 word machine is probably not very important. -- Andy Valencia Home page: http://www.vsta.org/andy/ To contact me: http://www.vsta.org/contact/andy.html
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| From | Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-17 19:24 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <4fb588ba$0$293$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #12245 |
On 5/17/12 6:43 PM, Bernd Paysan wrote: > Andrew Haley wrote: > >> over + swap ?do dup c@ i c! 1+ loop drop > > A bit simpler, use all idioms you have: > > : move ( src dest len -- ) > bounds ?do count i c! loop drop ; An observation, not a criticism: From Thinking Forth, chapter Factoring. "Moore: That particular phrase 'over + swap' is one that's right on the margin of being a useful word. ... You can't see the manipulation in your mind. 'over + swap' has greater mneumonic value than 'bounds'." I will admit to not always agreeing with Charles Moore's thinking. -Doug
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-17 18:38 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <wLGdnczbSfl6FijSnZ2dnUVZ_uOdnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #12245 |
Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote: > Andrew Haley wrote: > >> over + swap ?do dup c@ i c! 1+ loop drop > > A bit simpler, use all idioms you have: > > : move ( src dest len -- ) > bounds ?do count i c! loop drop ; > > Looks perfect, just 7 words. I'm a great believer in what Brodie called "cliches". OVER + SWAP is one such: I just know what it does, I don't see it as three words with a stack action. As for the abuse of COUNT... :-) Andrew.
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| From | Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-17 22:30 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <m46uiv.132@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #12229 |
In article <a1klp7Fgi3U1@mid.individual.net>, <vandys@vsta.org> wrote:
>Elizabeth D. Rather <erather@forth.com> wrote:
>> It is a common fallacy among engineers to assume that failure to be
>> popular is due to inherent product flaws and can be remedied by fixing
>> said flaws.
>
>It's a also common mental mechanism ("denial") to not accept that reality
>provides a meaningful feedback mechanism.
>
>At the high level, Forth lacks the amenities which are used by most modern
>programmers. Fine, so we claim Forth is for the low level. But remember
>that when I asked for a Forth implementation superior to:
>
>void
>memcopy(char *src, char *dest, int count)
>{
> while (count--) {
> *dest++ = *src++;
> }
>}
What you show is is of course, not the c-code that is actually used
for a production memcpy() as per libc.
In fact it is a standard function that nobody bothers to write.
In Forth too it is an standard word : CMOVE.
If I had to add it to my Forth it would be a code word.
CODE CMOVE \ (source, dest, count)
MOV, X| T| BX'| SI| \ Save interpreter pointer
POP|X, CX| \ count
POP|X, DI| \ dest
POP|X, SI| \ source
REP: MOVS, B|
MOV, X| F| BX'| SI| \ Restore
NEXT,
END-CODE
Fast and practical. It is all about solutions, not whether it can be
written in high level code, and altogether not whether it can be
written in high level purely standard code.
[If you think that assembler code is involved, look at some actual
c-code from e.g. the gnu libc for memcpy().]
>
>I got lots of hand waving, but no Forth code (actually, I posted my tries in
>both Forth and c18 code, but didn't outdo the C version). Because we all
>know that Forth's great at doing something to one value, OK at two, and then
>drops off a cliff when an algorithm involves three (or, God help us, more)
>values used roughly equally.
>
>So Forth isn't good for high level, it's for low level. But, no, not *that*
>kind of low level. It's good at the kind it's good at. You owe it to Forth
>to learn it, and if it's sucky, it's you, not the language.
>
>That kind of argument really doesn't hold up when the rest of the world has
>adopted languages at both the high and low level which have blown past Forth
>and can barely see it in the rear view mirror. Which, in a vibrant
>technology usually is the catalyst for an agonizing reappraisal followed by
>fundamental changes. In a senescent technology, it's the time when you
>circle the wagons and hunker down.
My Forth does a good job in solving some though problems at
projecteuler. But I admit sometimes I use Python because I need
higher levels of abstraction that is hard to obtain using Forth.
(Like hash tables of objects.)
So yes, you have a point. Meanwhile I enjoy having absolute control
and knowing how my compiler looks from the bottom up.
>--
>Andy Valencia
Groetjes Albert
--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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| From | BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-17 10:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <90c355a2-3b1c-481a-bab9-04efe01c397e@n8g2000pbv.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #12220 |
On May 17, 4:08 am, "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_h...@notemailntt.cmm> wrote: > IMO, without change of some sort, Forth isn't going to become "more > successful." The most likely change, though, would be to find some niche with substantial future growth prospects for which Forth's advantages are strong and where there it can either render some established source code base more usable, or move into a niche for which there is not yet an established course code base. What that niche would be? No idea. Its not a job that I'd suggest taking on based on hope for revenue or profit shares.
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| From | Jan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-20 13:14 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <koqdnWoACa67fSXSnZ2dnUVZ8ladnZ2d@brightview.co.uk> |
| In reply to | #12235 |
On 17/05/12 18:59, BruceMcF wrote: > On May 17, 4:08 am, "Rod Pemberton"<do_not_h...@notemailntt.cmm> > wrote: >> IMO, without change of some sort, Forth isn't going to become "more >> successful." > > The most likely change, though, would be to find some niche with > substantial future growth prospects for which Forth's advantages are > strong and where there it can either render some established source > code base more usable, or move into a niche for which there is not yet > an established course code base. > > What that niche would be? No idea. Its not a job that I'd suggest > taking on based on hope for revenue or profit shares. The Actel/Microsemi Igloo dev kit has FPGA with 8 RAM blocks of 256x18, so this is a tight niche. Lattice/SiliconBlue have similar very low power parts. If a stack engine memory requirements are shoe-horned into a 256x16 RAM then an array of 8 processors could fit on a small chip. Jan Coombs -- Simulate j1/b16 stack processor, export code to FPGA tools, email for details: jan4myhdlatmurrayhyphenmicroftdotcodotuk http://excamera.com/sphinx/fpga-j1.html http://bernd-paysan.de/b16.html myhdl.org
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| From | marko <marko@marko.marko> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-18 11:46 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <4fb5a9f3$0$3971$c3e8da3$b23f186d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #12206 |
quiet_lad wrote: > and java too > > stuff I see at work takes dozens fo gigs ram and still can only fo 18 > responses a second, whiel backups take 5 hours Ruby, perl, python, java etc are basically interchangable. You choose one of these languages for your project, hopefully getting the one best suited to your application. If you pick the wrong one, it really does not matter. You then get an interchangeable development infrastructure based on rcs, cvs, git etc and host your app on apache or another interchangble web server (or win/linux/mac desktop). Hire and fire developers as necessary to get something that works enough to derive enough income to survive. The current flavours of forth are not suited to developing these kinds of applications - all of the gurus here say so, and have said so many times before. They have also pretty clearly stated what forth is good for. There are two fundemental reasons why forth cannot replace these languages, development and delivery infrastructures. 1. The company you work for with gigs of ram and 18 responses per second is making money. They are still in business. Why would they change? 2. If you were to convince them to change to forth, how long would it take to change over? Lets assume a typical server LAMP stack (linux, apache, mysql and php) was 1 million lines of code. If you got 10:1 forth efficiency compression, you would have 100,000 lines of code to develop. How long would this take to write, debug, deliver and deploy? If you want forth to supplant ruby, perl, python and java then you have 3 options. 1. Write gavforth with the necessary features to do it. You will make a fortune if you are sucessfull. 2. Propose a detailed plan as to what features gavforth needs to be competitive and maybe manage and code an open source project. You will atleast be famous. 3. Wait. Then wait some more while the rest of the world continues to fly past. What is it going to be?
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-17 20:10 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <F96dnZwlGY9AeijSnZ2dnUVZ_oudnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #12255 |
On 5/17/12 3:46 PM, marko wrote: > quiet_lad wrote: > >> and java too >> >> stuff I see at work takes dozens fo gigs ram and still can only fo 18 >> responses a second, whiel backups take 5 hours > > > Ruby, perl, python, java etc are basically interchangable. You choose > one of these languages for your project, hopefully getting the one best > suited to your application. If you pick the wrong one, it really does > not matter. You then get an interchangeable development infrastructure > based on rcs, cvs, git etc and host your app on apache or another > interchangble web server (or win/linux/mac desktop). Hire and fire > developers as necessary to get something that works enough to derive > enough income to survive. > > The current flavours of forth are not suited to developing these kinds > of applications - all of the gurus here say so, and have said so many > times before. They have also pretty clearly stated what forth is good > for. Correct. It was an ignorant question. > There are two fundemental reasons why forth cannot replace these > languages, development and delivery infrastructures. > > 1. The company you work for with gigs of ram and 18 responses per > second is making money. They are still in business. Why would they > change? > > 2. If you were to convince them to change to forth, how long would it > take to change over? Lets assume a typical server LAMP stack (linux, > apache, mysql and php) was 1 million lines of code. If you got 10:1 > forth efficiency compression, you would have 100,000 lines of code to > develop. How long would this take to write, debug, deliver and deploy? > > > If you want forth to supplant ruby, perl, python and java then you have > 3 options. > > 1. Write gavforth with the necessary features to do it. You will make > a fortune if you are sucessfull. > 2. Propose a detailed plan as to what features gavforth needs to be > competitive and maybe manage and code an open source project. You will > atleast be famous. > 3. Wait. Then wait some more while the rest of the world continues to > fly past. > > > What is it going to be? Languages developed for a specific purpose that include the appropriate infrastructure for that purpose will always be a better choice than one developed for something else. However, before consigning Forth to the very-very-low-end-no-infrastructure bucket, please note that by design Standard Forth is intended as the basis for an *application-oriented language* (Chucks term, from late 70's). Forth systems used in particular application domains develop (quite quickly) appropriate infrastructure for *that* application domain. What you see in Standard Forth is rarely what you work with on an application, at least in professional shops. These developers start by choosing a Forth with an appropriate orientation (e.g. for Windows, Linux, Mac, or one of the many cross-compilers offered by MPE and FORTH, Inc.) and it will come with a lot of suitable extensions. Then they start adding those features that they will need for what they're doing. In this environment, the purpose a Standard serves is to help these programmers identify where they are dependent on the implementation and platform they chose, and (if they wish) segregate implementation-specific code in well-identified places so as to facilitate moving to a different platform should that become necessary. The end result is a system that is as well-tailored to their application as Ruby, perl, python, etc., are to their target application domains. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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| From | Arnold Doray <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-18 10:32 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <jp58f2$rsp$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #12255 |
On Fri, 18 May 2012 11:46:26 +1000, marko wrote: > There are two fundemental reasons why forth cannot replace these > languages, development and delivery infrastructures. Really? There are lots of new languages like Clojure, Scala, etc. that are making inroads into old territory. Ruby was obscure (except in Japan) until Rails came along. Your reasoning could also be applied to Forth in the 1980's, when it had was hugely popular. If your resoning is correct, it should have remained so. What happened? Languages succeed (or fail) depending on a variety of factors. IMHO for Forth, it is the lack of immediately available facilities/libraries and other scaffolding that modern application developers take for granted. Forth is in a death-spiral from this point of view because its main adherents have an embedded focus, where libraries, etc are viewed with some skepticism -- for good reason. But Forth is probably dying even in its main niche. I was talking to a young (late 20s?) embedded hardware engineer who hadn't even heard of Forth. He thought I meant Fortran. He uses C. It's sad, because Forth is a beautiful, practical languges which has the potential to be relevant even outside it embedded niche. Cheers, Arnold
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| From | marko <marko@marko.marko> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-18 21:27 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <4fb6321f$0$20734$c3e8da3$f6268168@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #12267 |
Arnold Doray wrote: > On Fri, 18 May 2012 11:46:26 +1000, marko wrote: > >> There are two fundemental reasons why forth cannot replace these >> languages, development and delivery infrastructures. > > Really? This is poor grammer on my part - whilst development and delivery infrastuctures are crucial, I was pointing forward to the fact that many will accept poor quality, hence stifling innovation and that the new product must hit a sufficiently large need first time in an already crowded and confused market. > > There are lots of new languages like Clojure, Scala, etc. that are making > inroads into old territory. Ruby was obscure (except in Japan) until > Rails came along. > > Your reasoning could also be applied to Forth in the 1980's, when it had > was hugely popular. If your resoning is correct, it should have remained > so. What happened? That I don't know, I first used it in 1987 and I still use it now for some things. > > Languages succeed (or fail) depending on a variety of factors. IMHO for > Forth, it is the lack of immediately available facilities/libraries and > other scaffolding that modern application developers take for granted. > Forth is in a death-spiral from this point of view because its main > adherents have an embedded focus, where libraries, etc are viewed with > some skepticism -- for good reason. But Forth is probably dying even in > its main niche. I was talking to a young (late 20s?) embedded hardware > engineer who hadn't even heard of Forth. He thought I meant Fortran. He > uses C. I think Elizabeth was spot on regarding extensions / libraries / facilities / frameworks, whatever you like to call them. Where Forth has suitable extensions available, the choice would be easier. I'd never thought of using the standard as a baseline here, tending to work on code everything to understand the problem phillosophy. Without readily available domain specific extensions you have to make the choice between changing to a new language or extending the existing one. Unfortunately it is far too easy to defer the choice to someone else, if you are even given a choice. > > It's sad, because Forth is a beautiful, practical languges which has the > potential to be relevant even outside it embedded niche. I totally agree. However applying Forth Application Oriented thinking to any language should get you a better product especially in large systems. Cheers Marko > > Cheers, > Arnold
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| From | Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-05-18 22:58 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <96df03ae-1558-40f4-b616-4fd8120b2340@w16g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #12206 |
On May 15, 11:27 pm, quiet_lad <gavcom...@gmail.com> wrote: > and java too > > stuff I see at work takes dozens fo gigs ram and still can only fo 18 responses a second, whiel backups take 5 hours I "beleive" that a Forth program could supplant Gavino if "it wanted to" (note that programs are non-sentient, so they can't actually "want to" do anything, although Brodie did say about light-bulbs that incandescents is their karma, so perhaps nonsense is a Forth program's karma). Let this be our new programming challenge --- write a program that generates weird Gavino-like questions, complete with the bizarre grammar and misspellings. The test of success is if the questions can get posted on comp.lang.forth and garner 60+ responses.
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