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Re: Portability

From Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Subject Re: Portability
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
References <Q_ednQPtEZJqe8LMnZ2dnUVZ7vqdnZ2d@giganews.com> <gLGdnaPZpbm3TPrMnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@supernews.com> <2013Apr12.154339@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <D4SdnUAv5-fwrPXMnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@supernews.com> <5168577e$0$26887$e4fe514c@dreader37.news.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID <qaCdnRznMZtugPTMnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@supernews.com> (permalink)
Date 2013-04-13 03:57 -0500

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Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
> In article <D4SdnUAv5-fwrPXMnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@supernews.com>,
> Andrew Haley  <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>>>>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>>>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>>>>>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>>Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It clearly states that < is supposed
>>>>>>>>> to work on signed numbers. So the behaviour you describe would be a
>>>>>>>>> defect ("or bug") as in "deviation from the specification".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Not really, no, any more than this is a deviation from the
>>>>>>>>specification:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>2147483647 dup + . -2  ok
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you really claim that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -30000 30000 <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> producing false is correct when the specification says "signed
>>>>>>> comparison", not "circular comparison"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's as [in]correct as
>>>>>>
>>>>>>+    n1 n2 - sum
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Return the sum of n1 + n2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>failing to do just that.
>>>>>
>>>>> A + that does not implement the specification is incorrect, sure.
>>>>> However, in ANS Forth, the specification of + is:
>>>>
>>>>If we were talking about ANS Forth that would be relevant.
>>>
>>> Not ANS Forth?  "2147483647 dup + ." is certainly beyond fig-Forth,
>>> Forth-79, and Forth-83.  So what Forth specification are you
>>> discussing?
>>
>>fig-FORTH, and explicitly so.  I absolutely agree that this would be a
>>bug in any ANS Forth.
>>
>>> ": < - 0< ;" would be an incorrect implementation of < wrt
>>> fig-Forth's specification, while fig-Forth's actual < is a correct
>>> implementation.
>>
>>fig-FORTH's actual < is
>>
>>: <   - 0<  ;
>>
>>I'm looking at the original source code.
> 
> Okay. It is a curious historical side note.
> I've looked into 6 or 7 versions (mostly even in print) and they
> differ from this.

Sure, but it's the fig-FORTH model (for 6502, written in Forth) on
which all the others were based

>>Around that time, when standardization was a work in progress, there
>>was a lot of dicussion about such things.  Sanderson and Brodie's
>>paper explained why Forth Inc preferred the circular relational.
>>The fig-FORTH model was based on microFORTH, which was created by
>>Dean Sanderson.  It is therefore not at all surprising that < is
>>defined in the same way.  It is not a mistake.
> 
> I've giving you quotes from the figForth glossary and installation
> manual which was widely circulated. No one except you manages to
> find back traces of fig-Forth's original sin.

That's their problem, not mine.  If you've got the Installation Manual
with the source you'll find it on Block 38.

> Very early in the game apparently fig-Forth repented. So we should
> pardon once and for all.

If you've got the proceedings withe Sanderson and Brodie's paper, you
should read it.

Andrew.

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Thread

 Portability kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2013-04-06 04:12 -0500
  Re: Portability albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-06 11:31 +0000
    Re: Portability "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-06 10:34 -1000
      Re: Portability "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-04-09 09:56 +1000
        Re: Portability albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-09 01:30 +0000
          Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-09 07:21 +0000
            Re: Portability "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-08 22:18 -1000
              Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-09 12:41 +0000
                Re: Portability Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-04-09 17:21 +0200
                Re: Portability "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-09 08:06 -1000
                Re: Portability Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-09 22:34 +0200
                Re: Portability "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-09 12:05 -1000
                Re: Portability "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-09 14:19 -1000
                Re: Portability Chris <xrissmith@me.com> - 2013-04-09 20:45 -0700
                Re: Portability "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-04-10 14:02 +1000
                Re: Portability Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-09 23:00 -0700
                Re: Portability "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-12 14:41 +0000
                Re: Portability "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-04-13 15:34 +1000
                Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-10 15:19 +0000
                Re: Portability albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-10 11:46 +0000
                Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-10 15:03 +0000
                Re: Portability Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-09 18:28 -0700
            Re: Portability Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-09 17:00 -0700
          Re: Portability "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-04-10 13:00 +1000
            Re: Portability albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-10 11:55 +0000
              Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-10 10:10 -0500
                Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-10 15:56 +0000
                Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-10 16:18 -0500
                Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-11 13:24 +0000
                Re: Portability Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-11 20:50 -0700
                Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-12 04:17 -0500
                Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-12 13:43 +0000
                Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-12 11:08 -0500
                Re: Portability albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-12 18:50 +0000
                Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-13 03:57 -0500
                Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-13 11:59 +0000
                Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-13 14:47 -0500
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-12 10:44 -0400
                Re: Portability Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-15 16:20 +0200
                Re: Portability "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-16 08:12 -1000
                Re: Portability "A.K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-04-16 22:21 +0200
                Re: Portability Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-16 22:33 +0200
                Re: Portability "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-04-19 15:04 +1000
                Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-15 15:46 +0000
                Re: Portability Sieur de Bienville <morrimichael@gmail.com> - 2013-04-15 19:19 -0700
                Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-16 12:53 +0000
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-16 17:29 -0400
                Re: Portability "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-16 11:44 -1000
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-16 18:00 -0400
                Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-16 17:33 -0500
                Re: Portability "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-16 12:46 -1000
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-17 13:09 -0400
                Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-17 12:20 -0500
                Re: Portability "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-17 07:38 -1000
                Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-17 16:43 -0500
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-17 20:03 -0400
                Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-18 16:53 -0500
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-18 18:02 -0400
                Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-19 03:30 -0500
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-19 15:31 -0400
                Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-22 09:59 +0000
                Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-22 07:28 -0500
                Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-22 15:27 +0000
                Re: Portability Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-22 18:16 -0700
                Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-17 10:23 +0000
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-17 13:46 -0400
                Re: Portability anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-22 09:47 +0000
                Re: Portability Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-17 10:32 -0700
                Re: Portability nobody@nowhere - 2013-04-17 17:36 +0000
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-17 14:21 -0400
                Re: Portability Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-17 15:03 -0700
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-17 18:22 -0400
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-17 18:24 -0400
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-18 00:51 -0400
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-18 17:19 -0400
                Re: Portability Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-19 12:37 -0700
                Re: Portability rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-19 15:53 -0400
                Re: Portability Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-04-17 19:26 +0200
                Re: Portability albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-10 18:50 +0000
                Re: Portability Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-10 22:14 +0200
                Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-12 04:18 -0500
                Re: Portability "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-12 08:30 -1000
                Re: Portability albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-12 18:58 +0000
                Re: Portability "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-12 11:29 -1000
              Re: Portability "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-04-13 14:57 +1000
        Re: Portability Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-09 04:11 -0500

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