Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type

Date	2013-08-06 13:16 -1000
From	"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Organization	FORTH, Inc.
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type
References	<ktp0gt$mif$1@dont-email.me> <5201151b.2293282027@news.demon.co.uk> <520135c2$0$3184$e4fe514c@dreader36.news.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID	<pKWdnYu2eetIHpzPnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d@supernews.com> (permalink)

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On 8/6/13 7:43 AM, Albert van der Horst wrote:
> In article <5201151b.2293282027@news.demon.co.uk>,
> Stephen Pelc <stephenXXX@mpeforth.com> wrote:
>>
>> I don't believe that "nts are evil", I just do not believe that they
>> have been justified yet. VFX has name fields. I realise that one *can*
>> write tools with TRAVERSE-WORDLIST, but there have been no compelling
>> examples of *what* these tools might be. Without examples, an nt
>> remains what MPE calls a WIBNI - "Wouldn't It Be Nice If". WIBNIs
>> are not enough to justify standardisation.
>
> Case in point. ciforth has TRAVERSE-WORDLIST which is called FOR-WORDS.
> It was never used in a library. It appeared not useful in ciasdis
> where the collection of assembler words is a wordlist that is traversed.
>
> I used it in
> : WORDS  'ID. CONTEXT @ FOR-WORDS ; ( or some such).
>
> Then I decided that I want the words in the order most recent last.
> Now WORDS did not become large, for a useful modification.
> Gone was the last place where TRAVERSE-WORDLIST is used.
>
> I join you in doubting that this kind of words is useful.
> If it opens a can of worms around nt's and xt's, it is probably
> not worth it.

The problem is, as soon as you start encouraging folks to do things with 
names and other header info, you find yourself either constraining 
header organization or adding a plethora of specialized tools that are 
rarely used.

The real intent of the ANS Forth TC, as I recall, was to provide user 
control of data space, but keep code/dictionary space opaque, hence the 
xt. Implementers can and should provide extensive programming and/or 
introspection tools; it's an important "quality of implementation" 
issue. And users of well-documented implementations can add tools to 
their favorite systems, but there is no guarantee they'll be portable.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
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Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
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Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-08-05 21:11 +0100
  Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-06 07:01 +0000
    Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-08-06 16:10 +0000
      Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-06 22:22 +0200
  Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-08-06 15:54 +0000
    Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-06 17:43 +0000
      Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-08-06 13:16 -1000
        Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-08-06 13:55 -1000
        Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-07 02:33 +0200
          Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-08-07 16:29 +0100
            Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-07 10:54 -0500
              Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-08-07 17:10 +0100
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-07 12:06 -0500
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-08-07 18:43 +0100
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-07 12:47 -0500
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-08-07 19:14 +0100
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-07 15:13 -0500
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-08-07 23:09 +0100
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-08 13:45 +0000
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-08-08 15:41 +0100
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-08 10:29 -0500
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-08 16:15 +0000
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-08 19:25 +0200
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-08 14:05 -0500
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-12 16:28 +0000
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-12 12:44 -0500
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-13 07:08 +0000
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-13 03:40 -0500
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-13 09:47 +0000
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-13 05:55 -0500
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-13 12:18 +0000
                Re: Adding NTs or making XTs the only opaque Forth type Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-13 10:32 -0500

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