Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based

Date	2013-04-03 09:12 +0200
From	David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth, comp.arch.fpga
Subject	Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based
References	(1 earlier) <kj51u8$7l1$1@speranza.aioe.org> <kj7nd5$54l$1@dont-email.me> <kj9vkg$mtp$1@speranza.aioe.org> <kjenr0$1mp$1@dont-email.me> <kjf41c$c0i$1@speranza.aioe.org>
Message-ID	<gaOdnRUAmdfFS8bMnZ2dnUVZ8l2dnZ2d@lyse.net> (permalink)

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 02/04/13 19:20, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
> In comp.arch.fpga rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 3/31/2013 2:34 PM, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:

>>> For Itanium, the different units do different things. There are
>>> instruction formats that divide up the bits in different ways to make
>>> optimal use of the bits. I used to have the manual nearby, but I don't
>>> see it right now.
>  
>> Yes, the array processor I worked on was coded from scratch, very 
>> laboriously.  The Itanium is trying to run existing code as fast as 
>> possible.  So they have a number of units to do similar things, but also 
>> different types, all working in parallel as much as possible.  Also the 
>> parallelism in the array processor was all controlled by the programmer. 
>>  In regular x86 processors the parallelism is controlled by the chip 
>> itself.  I'm amazed sometimes at just how much they can get the chip to 
>> do, no wonder there are 100's of millions of transistors on the thing. 
>> I assume parallelism in the Itanium is back to the compiler smarts to 
>> control since it needs to be coded into the VLIW instructions.
> 
> Seems to me that the big problem with the original Itanium was the
> need to also run x86 code. That delayed the release for some time, and
> in that time other processors had advanced. I believe that later
> versions run x86 code in software emulation, maybe with some hardware
> assist. 
> 

x86 compatibility was not the "big" problem with the Itanium (though it
didn't help).  There were two far bigger problems.  One is that the chip
was targeted as maximising throughput with little regard for power
efficiency, since it was for the server market - so all of the logic was
running all of the time to avoid latencies, and it has massive caches
that run as fast as possible.  The result here is that the original
devices had a power density exceeding the core of a nuclear reactor (it
was probably someone from AMD who worked that out...).

The big problem, however, is that the idea with VLIW is that the
compiler does all the work scheduling instructions in a way that lets
them run in parallel.  This works in some specialised cases - some DSP's
have this sort of architecture, and some types of mathematical
algorithms suit it well.  But when Intel started work on the Itanium,
compilers were not up to the task - Intel simply assumed they would work
well enough by the time the chips were ready.  Unfortunately for Intel,
compiler technology never made it - and in fact, it will never work
particularly well for general code.  There are too many unpredictable
branches and conditionals to predict parallelism at compile time.  So
most real-world Itanium code uses only about a quarter or so of the
processing units in the cpu at any one time (though some types of code
can work far better).  Thus Itanium chips run at half the real-world
speed of "normal" processors, while burning through at least twice the
power.

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MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-03-29 17:00 -0400
  Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-03-29 21:43 +0000
    Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-03-29 20:28 -0400
      Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-03-31 18:34 +0000
        Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-02 09:54 -0400
          Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-04-02 17:20 +0000
            Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2013-04-03 09:12 +0200
    Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2013-04-01 15:11 -0500
  Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-29 18:19 -0700
    Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-03-30 18:50 -0400
      Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2013-04-01 13:18 -0700
        Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-02 10:50 -0400
          Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2013-04-02 23:39 -0700
            Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 09:54 -0400
              Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2013-04-05 14:30 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 17:53 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2013-04-06 13:27 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2013-04-06 13:37 -0700
        Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-04-07 15:21 -0700
          Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-08 01:24 -0400
            Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Syd Rumpo <usenet@nononono.co.uk> - 2013-04-08 10:18 +0100
          Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-08 04:18 -0500
  Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2013-03-30 08:20 +0100
    Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-03-30 19:00 -0400
      Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2013-03-31 13:20 +0200
  Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-30 17:54 -0400
    Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2013-03-31 09:11 +0200
      Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-04-01 20:10 -0400
        Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-04-02 00:54 +0000
          Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-02 13:31 -0400
            Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-04-02 19:03 +0000
        Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2013-04-02 08:25 +0200
          Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-02 13:33 -0400
        Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-02 13:26 -0400
          Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-04-03 20:34 -0400
            Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-04-04 02:07 +0000
              Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-04 11:16 +0000
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2013-04-04 13:25 +0200
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-04-04 12:44 +0000
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-04 17:04 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-04-04 21:34 +0000
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-04 19:30 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-05 00:41 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-04-04 15:30 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-04-04 23:15 +0000
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-04-04 17:26 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-05 01:17 +0000
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 18:00 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-04-08 23:55 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-04 20:07 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-05 00:51 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2013-04-05 14:31 +0200
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-05 07:33 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2013-04-05 17:01 +0200
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 18:25 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 17:44 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 10:14 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2013-04-05 20:13 +0200
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2013-04-05 20:15 +0200
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 18:54 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-08 09:57 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-09 10:13 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-09 08:55 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-09 14:40 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 18:49 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based daveyrotten <danw8804@gmail.com> - 2013-04-09 13:02 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-09 16:07 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based daveyrotten <danw8804@gmail.com> - 2013-04-09 13:26 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-10 00:33 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based daveyrotten <danw8804@gmail.com> - 2013-04-10 07:08 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-10 10:13 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Sieur de Bienville <morrimichael@gmail.com> - 2013-04-10 21:08 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-04-10 22:47 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-11 16:32 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-04-18 06:23 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-18 17:06 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-04-05 17:33 +0000
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 17:37 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 18:08 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 17:32 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Brian Davis <brimdavis@aol.com> - 2013-04-07 14:59 -0700
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-08 01:16 -0400
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-08 09:52 +0000
            Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-03 22:42 -0400
            Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-04-04 16:07 -0700
              Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-04-05 04:10 +0000
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-04-04 23:49 -0700
    Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-02 12:04 -0400
      Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-04-03 20:35 -0400
        Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-04 00:09 -0400
  Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-04-02 11:17 -0700
  Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Syd Rumpo <usenet@nononono.co.uk> - 2013-04-04 09:38 +0100
    Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2013-04-04 11:31 +0200
      Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-04 08:36 -1000
        Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 10:21 -0700
          Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-05 07:53 -1000
    Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-04-04 12:49 +0000
      Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2013-04-04 15:02 +0200
    Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-04 18:57 -0400
  Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 15:29 -0700
    Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 19:32 -0400
      Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-06 14:16 +0000
        Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 15:50 -0400
          Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-04-07 01:33 +0200
            Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 02:57 -0700
              Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-04-07 11:02 +0000
              Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-07 13:51 +0000
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-07 09:16 -1000
            Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-07 14:13 +0000
              Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-04-07 17:14 +0200
                Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-07 15:31 +0000
            Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-08 18:53 +0200
          Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-07 14:22 +0000
  Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-14 00:19 +0000
    Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-14 09:44 -0400
    Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-15 09:39 -0700
      Re: MISC - Stack Based vs. Register Based Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-15 19:28 +0200

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