Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.forth > #1395

Re: Forth on the Maximite

Show all headers | View raw

On 20 Apr., 03:08, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 7:14 pm, Bluebee <visualfo...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
> Now you are talking about something that is very real.  In trying to
> use Forth on various embedded processors a big problem is the lack of
> drivers.  The vendors often provide drivers for their peripherals, but
> in C, not Forth.

That's why I started "Renaissance of Forth" - asking for the ability
to use C inside Forth.
Using  C inside Forth would give the ability to use just these
provided drivers for their peripherals written in C. I still believe
it is possible to use drivers written in C by Forth.
May be special methods have to be used to make this possible. Wouldn't
that be a great help for you?

I looked at C as an universal assembler, and I am really wondering
reading opinions putting C and Forth on the same level. I am not the
only one having the opinion to see C as universal assembler:
http://www.trip.net/~bobwb/cppnotes/lec01.htm
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t441661-p12-making-fatal-hidden-assumptions.html
http://arclanguage.org/item?id=12577
and others.

Because I always preferred Forth to write programs, I didn't know that
C has so many drawbacks that this endeavor seams to be infeasible.

But: Not getting this done would be the first time that something is
not possible to do with Forth.

“Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done.” Robert A.
Heinlein, American science-fiction Writer, 1907-1988.

> Your paragraph above actually mentions external devices that need
> drivers, "keypads, displays, sensors".  These things won't be part of
> an MCU support package.

That's definitely not true. I have a project for which I have chosen
TI's MSP430, and TI has a lot of appnotes just for that and even for
more. Before I had chosen the MSP430, I started with Zilog's eZ8,
which has everything I need, even EEPROM on chip (the MSP430 has not).
Zilog has a great number of appnotes for that and even for more. Don't
forget, I already have mentioned that Microchip offers a full set of
development tools, code examples, USB, graphics, TCP/IP, and File
System software, all available with free source code. Of course TI and
Zilog offer free source code, too. All Written in C. All as part of an
MCU support package.

> ... They will be specific to boards ....

There is the point where Forth comes in. When I started with RSC-
Forth, Rockwell gave great Forth support for it's R65F11 and for it's
RSC-Forth Kernel and Development ROMs for their R6501 microcontroller.
I had a huge collection of RM65 boards (I sold these recently on
eBay), all with drivers and documentation.

That's why I never had problems with drivers. But when a friend of
mine - member of the German FIG-Chapter - recently bought a
microprocessor board with Forth to control the solar heating for his
house, he complained how hard it was to get it going and that he
wasn't able to setup a simple display connected to this microprocessor
board and he wasn't able to communicate with it. When I first heard
him talking about his problems I couldn't believe it, because for me
communication with the Forth embedded target system always was a must,
and setting up a display really never has been a problem for me. Took
me a long time to understand that times have changed and that I was
lucky to be able to work with Forth along my thirty years of being
self-employed.
Meanwhile I know, not everybody has such a lucky life.

> What is your point?  You won't find this for any processor and Forth
> unless you look at a Forth vendor web site possibly.  How does the
> impact a decision on what processor to use?

I dreadfully have to admit that you are right. But I am sure you do
not expect why I am writing this. There is just a Forth vendors web
site which gives the answer:

Look at http://www.triangledigital.com - this is the home page of
Triangle Digital Support, short TDS, a company in Great Britain. Their
motto was "Embedded computers made easy". They had the TDS2020 and
TDS9092, embedded instrumentation computers based on the language
Forth. TDS gave all the support for which I am asking here. But now
they are obsolete. They write: "Production ceased September 2008
following an announcement over three years earlier in May 2005.
Technical manuals and downloads for TDS2020 and TDS9092 remain on-
line. Although TDS2020 and TDS9092 are no longer generally available,
you can buy most spare parts and accessories from us. We also offer a
repair service. Please enquire."

Don't ask me why they decided to go that way.

> No, I don't think that hobbyists are the ones who "will decide
> tomorrow our future"[sic].  When I graduated to the job market, I
> didn't get to insist on what equipment I wanted.  I used what they
> gave me and it was a LOT better than Commodores.  In fact, I have
> NEVER been able to use Forth at a standard job in thirty years.  I am
> only able to use it now that I am self-employed.  I even got it into
> the budget for a project once and when it came time to buy the
> commercial Forth package budgeted for, the project manager nixed it!
> Now I don't have the funds that large companies have and Forth is not
> a main part of my work, so I am using open source tools.

I am sorry to read that you never have been able to use Forth at a
standard job in thirty years.
When I came to the United States I was lucky to introduce a new
microprocessor at the company which hired me. The first thing I had to
do was an introduction into microprocessors to interested  colleagues.
Because the microcontroller I started with - Mitsubishi's M38049 - was
just a brand new special introduction for the US market, I had to
teach about using the 6502 machine language, because there was no
Forth available for this micro. The next step I did was to port RSC-
Forth to the M38049, which was really easy. Then I did several
instrumentation developments with Forth, the last one was a dual
processor system with MPE's Tiny ARM Stamp to generate 3-phase PWM for
high voltage (nearly a million Volt) using IGBT's - and a transformer,
of course. I didn't have any problem using Forth. They paid for MPE's
development system. This company looked for results, and I got results
with Forth fast.

> ... But
> unfortunately it is not going as well as I would like.  Seems the
> serial port routines giving me a problem that others don't see.

I worked with serial port routines all my professional life.
What is your problem?
May be I am able to help you.
The problem with serial communication is that it only works if
everything is done right. If only one little thing is wrong - hardware
or software, it doesn't work or does give wrong results like cryptic
text. And there are problems with EMV sometimes. There are IBM
computers like the /S2, which do not like little spikes on serial
data. I had this once, hard to find, because all instruments told me
everything is okay - until I connected an oscilloscope, driving the
intensity up high, showed me spikes, coming from a defect power supply
inside an RS232-RS485 converter. Strange things happen.

> I think the whole hobbyist thing is vastly overstated.

I don't understand. I thought you started Forth as an hobbyist.

> Most of the
> engineers I have worked with are just engineers.  They didn't start
> working with stuff in their basements or even in school really.  Most
> engineers graduate with little practical experience really.  They use
> what is expedient on the job and that is often what others have used
> for two reasons.  One, they can ask others for help.  Two, no one gets
> fired for doing what the masses are doing.  But try doing something
> different and failing in any way and you get a big black mark in your
> book.  That is why there is often little innovation.

Are you living in Germany? I came over here to the United States being
sure that people like Forth here.

> If you wanted to do the work, I'd say you had a fighting chance of
> getting some users to switch.  But if you are just suggesting that
> someone else do the work, how are you going to motivate them?
>
> Rick

I mentioned before, that my pleading is for the window of opportunity.

Somebody has done this work already. Stephen Pelc wrote:
"In the context of Microchip and PIC32, MPE has had a MIPS compiler
since 1992/1993. Demand and sales have been minimal. Until PIC32
arrived there has been almost no discussion of Forth for MIPS." There
must have been a reason for MPE to write a MIPS compiler nearly twenty
years ago.

I myself like to use another window of opportunity: TI's new value
line series.

Best Regards,
Dirk.

Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Forth on the Maximite Andrew Reid <andrewreid69@gmail.com> - 2011-04-07 12:47 -0700
  Re: Forth on the Maximite Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-07 13:21 -0700
    Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-10 20:32 -0700
      Re: Forth on the Maximite rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2011-04-11 08:13 -0700
        Re: Forth on the Maximite anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-04-11 15:37 +0000
          Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-11 14:00 -0700
            Re: Forth on the Maximite rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2011-04-11 15:42 -0700
              Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-11 21:35 -0700
            Re: Forth on the Maximite anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2011-04-12 11:20 +0000
              Re: Forth on the Maximite Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2011-04-12 18:07 +0200
        Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-11 11:48 -0700
      Re: Forth on the Maximite Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-12 00:17 -0700
        Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-12 10:19 -0700
          Re: Forth on the Maximite Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-16 12:50 -0700
            Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-16 15:05 -0700
              Re: Forth on the Maximite rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 15:34 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-16 16:37 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 16:55 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-16 17:41 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 14:38 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-17 21:08 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2011-04-17 14:14 -0500
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-17 14:08 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2011-04-18 04:00 -0500
      Re: Forth on the Maximite Chris Baird <abuse@brushtail.apana.org.au> - 2011-04-16 20:12 +1000
        Re: Forth on the Maximite rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 15:36 -0700
          Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-16 17:06 -0700
            Re: Forth on the Maximite rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 14:15 -0700
              Re: Forth on the Maximite Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-04-18 18:12 +0000
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-18 11:15 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2011-04-18 21:44 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-19 00:23 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2011-04-19 07:23 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-19 10:24 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2011-04-19 12:22 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-19 16:14 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2011-04-20 00:08 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2011-04-20 10:46 +0000
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-20 14:55 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-21 20:24 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-04-21 21:02 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-21 23:09 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite "David N. Williams" <williams@umich.edu> - 2011-04-22 08:42 -0400
                Re: Forth on the Maximite BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2011-04-22 07:06 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-22 12:18 -0700
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2011-04-20 04:07 -0500
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-04-19 19:05 +0000
                Re: Forth on the Maximite Micke <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2011-04-19 12:00 -0700
        Re: Forth on the Maximite Bluebee <visualforth@rocketmail.com> - 2011-04-16 15:52 -0700
          Re: Forth on the Maximite Chris Baird <abuse@brushtail.apana.org.au> - 2011-04-17 23:01 +1000
      Re: Forth on the Maximite Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2011-04-21 19:52 -0700
    Re: Forth on the Maximite Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2011-04-10 21:58 -0700

csiph-web