Re: 0 SET-ORDER why?

Date	2024-06-28 15:51 +1000
Subject	Re: 0 SET-ORDER why?
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
References	(2 earlier) <667bd654$1@news.ausics.net> <v5h5h6$2565d$1@dont-email.me> <v5ioud$2ii4l$1@dont-email.me> <v5kde0$2sasd$1@dont-email.me> <v5ke5a$2sasd$2@dont-email.me>
From	dxf <dxforth@gmail.com>
Message-ID	<667e4f74$1@news.ausics.net> (permalink)
Organization	Ausics - https://newsgroups.ausics.net

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On 28/06/2024 5:22 am, Krishna Myneni wrote:
> On 6/27/24 14:09, Krishna Myneni wrote:
>> On 6/26/24 23:14, Gerry Jackson wrote:
>>> On 26/06/2024 14:36, Ruvim wrote:
>>>> One possible use case:
>>>>
>>>>    : turnkey ( -- ) 0 set-order
>>>>      also Target definitions
>>>>      also Minimal also
>>>>    ;
>>>
>>> ALSO duplicates the wordlist at the head of the search order. If the search order is empty there is nothing to duplicate. Therefore ALSO applied to an empty search order ought to be an ambiguous condition.
>>>
>>> Presumably the above definition works because a target wordlist replaces whatever garbage ALSO leaves in the search order. So the definition might as well have 0 1 SET-ORDER instead of 0 SET-ORDER ALSO.
>>> Or better still TARGET-WORDLIST 1 SET-ORDER. Either removes the above justification for 0 SET-ORDER.
>>>
>>
>> Good analysis showing that
>>
>> 1) The definition of TURNKEY is flawed.
>>
>> 2) 0 SET-ORDER is not necessary.
>>
>>
>>> But having said that it is better for 0 SET-ORDER to do what is natural instead of yet another ambiguous condition.
>>>
>>>  > Another possible use case:
>>>  >
>>>  >    : s-to-n ( addr u -- n )
>>>  >      depth >r
>>>  >      get-order n>r 0 set-order
>>>  >        ['] evaluate ['] execute-interpreting catch
>>>  >      nr> set-order
>>>  >      depth 1- r> <> if -12 throw then
>>>  >    ;
>>>
>>> This is a better use case e.g. if BASE is greater than decimal 10 converting an alphanumeric string to a number could clash with a word in the dictionary. Having an empty search order eliminates that possibility.
>>>
>>
>> This use case is convoluted and there may be a better of dealing with the anticipated problem. If not, we should consider what's missing in Forth allowing us to solve the problem more directly.
>>
>>
>> No one has pointed to a need for 0 SET-ORDER in interpretation state, and there is no to undo its use in interpretation state in a standard. Furthermore an empty search order contradicts the concept of a minimum search order.
>>
>> The solutions are:
>>
>> 1) leave everything as is, and live with the contradiction and the hazard of performing 0 SET-ORDER in interpretation state.
>>
>> 2) make SET-ORDER state-smart, and live with the contradiction. This will potentially break code.
>>
>> 3) disallow zero as an argument to SET-ORDER e.g. throw an error for zero.
>>
>> Am I missing any other options?
>>
>> Personally, I favor 3) -- throwing an error when zero is an argument to SET-ORDER.
>>
> 
> Edits:
> 
> No one has pointed to a need for 0 SET-ORDER in interpretation state,
> and there is no standard way to undo its use in interpretation state.
> 
> 3) disallow zero as an argument to SET-ORDER e.g. throw an error for zero. This will break existing code where zero is an argument to SET-ORDER.
> 
> Any idea of frequency of usage for 0 SET-ORDER . I don't believe I have ever used it in a definition.

It appears this topic has come up before:

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/Kku0wXJ8zMs/m/CgWkZ7Kl_EMJ

Other posts I've seen suggest Mitch Bradley may have been behind GET-ORDER SET-ORDER
(originally a fix for ONLY/ALSO).  May be worth contacting him.

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Thread

0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-06-25 18:25 -0500
  Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? minforth@gmx.net (minforth) - 2024-06-26 01:19 +0000
    Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2024-06-26 11:12 +0200
    Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-06-26 05:54 -0500
  Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2024-06-26 07:49 +0000
    Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 18:50 +1000
      Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Ruvim <ruvim.pinka@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 17:36 +0400
        Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-06-27 13:19 +1000
          Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2024-06-27 23:10 +0100
            Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-06-28 11:56 +1000
          Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Ruvim <ruvim.pinka@gmail.com> - 2024-06-28 13:51 +0400
            Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-06-28 22:19 +1000
              Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Ruvim <ruvim.pinka@gmail.com> - 2024-06-28 17:48 +0400
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-06-29 03:08 +1000
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-07-01 18:45 +1000
            Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-06-29 13:27 +1000
        Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2024-06-27 05:14 +0100
          Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2024-06-27 11:05 +0200
            Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? minforth@gmx.net (minforth) - 2024-06-27 13:00 +0000
          Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-06-27 22:41 +1000
          Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-06-27 14:09 -0500
            Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-06-27 14:22 -0500
              Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2024-06-27 23:08 +0100
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-06-27 18:44 -0500
              Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-06-28 15:51 +1000
            Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2024-06-28 10:04 +0200
              Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-06-29 09:09 -0500
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2024-06-30 12:22 +0200
          Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Ruvim <ruvim.pinka@gmail.com> - 2024-06-28 14:20 +0400
            Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2024-06-28 21:45 +0200
              Recognizer protocol (was: 0 SET-ORDER why?) Ruvim <ruvim.pinka@gmail.com> - 2024-06-29 02:27 +0400
            Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Gerry Jackson <do-not-use@swldwa.uk> - 2024-07-04 07:26 +0100
    Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2024-06-26 11:18 +0200
      Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? minforth@gmx.net (minforth) - 2024-06-26 10:36 +0000
      Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-06-26 06:13 -0500
    Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-06-26 05:56 -0500
      Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2024-06-28 15:50 +0000
        Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2024-06-28 18:39 +0200
        Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-06-29 09:17 -0500
          Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-06-30 12:21 +1000
            Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-06-30 11:10 -0500
              Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-06-30 11:16 -0500
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? minforth@gmx.net (minforth) - 2024-06-30 17:38 +0000
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2024-06-30 20:25 +0200
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-06-30 13:31 -0500
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? minforth@gmx.net (minforth) - 2024-06-30 20:37 +0000
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-06-30 20:49 -0500
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? mhx@iae.nl (mhx) - 2024-07-01 07:06 +0000
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-07-01 05:06 -0500
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2024-07-01 13:35 +0200
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Ruvim <ruvim.pinka@gmail.com> - 2024-07-01 13:02 +0400
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-07-01 05:13 -0500
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-07-01 21:02 +1000
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 15:56 +1000
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-07-02 20:04 -0500
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 12:32 +1000
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2024-07-03 11:59 +0200
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-07-04 00:46 +1000
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2024-07-01 13:39 +0200
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? sjack@dontemail.me (sjack) - 2024-07-02 14:29 +0000
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> - 2024-07-03 00:52 +1000
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Ruvim <ruvim.pinka@gmail.com> - 2024-07-02 17:42 +0400
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Krishna Myneni <krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org> - 2024-07-02 20:17 -0500
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Anthony Howe <achowe@snert.com> - 2024-09-21 15:37 -0400
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Ruvim <ruvim.pinka@gmail.com> - 2024-09-22 21:52 +0400
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Anthony Howe <achowe@snert.com> - 2024-09-22 14:02 -0400
                Re: 0 SET-ORDER why? Ruvim <ruvim.pinka@gmail.com> - 2024-09-23 00:21 +0400

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