Re: Alternatives to S" and TO

From	anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Alternatives to S" and TO
Date	2012-06-23 13:32 +0000
Organization	Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID	<2012Jun23.153237@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <jrvvcd$853$1@online.de> <4fe445d5.175973121@192.168.0.50> <97-dnWNi04BM0HnSnZ2dnUVZ8nydnZ2d@supernews.com> <2012Jun22.171947@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <zZidnRcBR7rd5HjSnZ2dnUVZ8hOdnZ2d@supernews.com>

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Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>> One interpretation is that we should go back to implementing S" and
>> TO with STATE-smart words, and to make STATE-smart words an accepted
>> technique, and to hell with xts, POSTPONE, code generators and other
>> guru stuff that's troublesome in the presence of STATE-smart words.
>
>There's no need to use state-smartness for any words except S" and TO .

Yes, and with a more capable system it's not even needed for S" and TO.

However, there is a reason why we got S" and TO, and that reason does
not stop at these words: people want to be able to write code (that
includes parsing words) that works both interpretively and inside
colon definitions.  And they will define such words, and if no other
options are available, they will define STATE-smart words.

>Given no means other than IMMEDIATE to create words with compilation
>semantics, FIND would have one unambigous defintion.

For user-defined words yes, but what about system-defined words like
S" and TO?  Do you want to require them to be STATE-smart?

>My solution is more "Back to the future": a Forth that looks to the
>programmer like a traditional implementation, but does as much
>optimization as you want under the hood.

That is definitely a good idea.  The smart COMPILE, goes in that
direction, but I guess what you have in mind is optimization at an
even later stage.

>  One that does its tricks,
>but not in a way that confuses FIND with several different kinds of
>token.  We know from our discussions here that isn't going to work.

Actually it does work (Gforth is one example), it's just pretty awful.

And it's certainly not optimal to put code generation/optimization at
a level visible through FIND; e.g., consider ['] + COMPILE, in
cmForth; it will compile a call to a colon definition that performs a
+ instead of just compiling +.  An intellingent COMPILE, does not have
this issue.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2012: http://www.euroforth.org/ef12/

Thread

?EXEC Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-15 20:40 +0000
  Re: ?EXEC "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-06-16 11:14 +1000
  Re: ?EXEC BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-06-16 07:10 -0700
    Re: ?EXEC Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-17 03:01 +0000
      Re: ?EXEC "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-06-17 13:36 +1000
      Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-17 12:27 +0000
        Re: ?EXEC Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-17 20:45 +0000
          Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-18 13:31 +0000
            Re: ?EXEC Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-18 18:29 +0000
              Re: ?EXEC "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-06-18 08:01 -1000
              Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-19 14:09 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-06-19 10:51 -0500
                Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-19 16:04 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-06-19 12:45 -0500
                Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-20 10:50 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-06-20 07:10 -0500
                Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-20 12:47 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-19 22:52 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-20 10:59 +0000
                Defining Compilation Behaviour - was Re: ?EXEC JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2012-06-21 04:58 -0700
                Re: Defining Compilation Behaviour - was Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-21 15:44 +0000
            Re: ?EXEC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-06-19 02:11 +0200
              Re: ?EXEC "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-06-18 14:45 -1000
                Re: ?EXEC Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-19 10:48 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-19 15:53 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-19 23:00 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-20 11:09 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-06-20 07:39 -0700
                Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-20 15:32 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-06-21 11:24 -0700
                Re: ?EXEC Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-20 22:43 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-06-21 21:39 +0200
                Re: ?EXEC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-06-22 02:33 -0500
                Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-22 11:12 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-06-22 21:34 +0200
                Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-24 14:58 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-06-24 23:53 +0200
                Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-19 15:43 +0000
              Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-19 14:52 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-06-21 22:15 +0200
                Re: ?EXEC stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-06-22 10:32 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-06-22 05:49 -0500
                Alternatives to S" and TO (was: ?EXEC) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-22 15:19 +0000
                Re: Alternatives to S'' and TO mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-06-22 20:37 +0200
                Re: Alternatives to S'' and TO anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-23 14:46 +0000
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO (was: ?EXEC) BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-06-22 12:32 -0700
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-06-23 03:07 -0500
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-23 13:32 +0000
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-06-24 08:50 -0500
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-24 15:39 +0000
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-06-25 04:49 -0500
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-06-25 07:17 -0700
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-06-25 10:13 -0500
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO (was: ?EXEC) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-06-23 16:01 -0700
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO (was: ?EXEC) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-06-24 01:59 +0200
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO (was: ?EXEC) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-24 13:21 +0000
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO (was: ?EXEC) Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-24 16:50 +0000
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO (was: ?EXEC) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-06-27 23:30 +0200
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO (was: ?EXEC) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-24 13:15 +0000
                Re: Alternatives to S" and TO (was: ?EXEC) Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-24 16:47 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-22 20:34 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-06-22 21:46 +0200
                Re: ?EXEC "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-06-22 10:16 -1000
                Re: ?EXEC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-06-22 22:43 +0200
                Re: ?EXEC "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-06-22 11:18 -1000
                Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-23 13:50 +0000
      Re: ?EXEC BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-06-17 10:41 -0700
  Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-17 12:52 +0000
    Re: ?EXEC "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-06-17 08:03 -1000
      Re: ?EXEC "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-06-18 15:06 +1000
        Re: ?EXEC "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-06-17 20:31 -1000
          Re: ?EXEC "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-06-21 13:07 +1000
            Re: ?EXEC Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-21 14:00 +0000
              Re: ?EXEC BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-06-21 07:51 -0700
              Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-21 15:39 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-21 20:28 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-06-28 14:22 +1000
                Re: ?EXEC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-06-28 04:00 -0500
            Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-21 16:09 +0000
            Re: ?EXEC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-06-21 11:51 -0500
              Re: ?EXEC BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-06-21 11:21 -0700
                Re: ?EXEC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-06-22 01:42 -0500
                Re: ?EXEC "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-06-21 21:47 -1000
                Re: ?EXEC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-06-22 15:10 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-22 20:39 +0000
                Re: ?EXEC BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-06-22 12:47 -0700
                Re: ?EXEC BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-06-22 12:53 -0700
        Re: ?EXEC stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-06-21 08:39 +0000
          Re: ?EXEC "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-06-23 15:36 +1000
            Re: ?EXEC stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-06-23 10:58 +0000
              Re: ?EXEC "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-06-25 14:26 +1000
                Re: ?EXEC stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-06-25 08:37 +0000
      Re: ?EXEC Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-06-18 10:34 +0000
  Re: ?EXEC Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-06-18 17:47 +0200
    Re: ?EXEC Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-06-18 17:49 +0200
  Re: ?EXEC jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-06-22 15:43 -0700

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