Re: non-mainstream web (browsers)

From	Doc O'Leary , <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com>
Newsgroups	comp.infosystems.www.misc, comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: non-mainstream web (browsers)
Date	2025-08-19 21:58 +0000
Organization	Subsume Technologies, Inc.
Message-ID	<1082s2e$3uo4d$2@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(18 earlier) <20250813121414.0000180d@gmail.com> <107nita$161ct$1@dont-email.me> <20250815090319.00004318@gmail.com> <107r4mp$206g0$1@dont-email.me> <20250818104555.00004350@gmail.com>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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For your reference, records indicate that 
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:

> I will clarify for the sake of being clear, though I doubt it'll keep
> you from firing back with another "no u" - I'm *not* demanding that
> anybody specifically work to support Browser XYZ. What I *do* expect out
> of Web designers is some bare minimum of thought put into designing
> with an eye towards graceful degradation, which (while never perfect)
> has been possible since the beginning and remains so today.

NO U!  :-)

Seriously, you’re laying blame on the *wrong* people.  Web pages work/
look like they do because someone in management (and/or marketing) 
*told* the designer to make it that way.  It’s fundamentally the 
“culture” argument I’ve been making.

> I'm talking about basic, *basic* stuff here - things like not depending
> on Javascript to load and display static page content, not hiding all
> your site navigation behind a hamburger button and CSS pop-over, and
> for the love of all that is good and holy *not* redirecting unfamiliar
> user agents to a screw-you-for-not-using-an-Approved-Browser page.

All culture.  At least to a point; there is the technical angle that 
I’ve brought up: there is no “graceful” way to degrade what JavaScript 
does.  There is no alternative in the standard to replace just part 
of a page, no support for a “reference implementation” of CSS that 
would universally give you site navigation how *you* want it, no 
ethical rules of publishing that intrinsically require a request to 
get a uniform response.  Ironically, though, someone *could* build a 
browser that tried to “sandbox” the whole web through a user-centric 
interface with support for things like that (which is *kinda* what 
screen readers aim to do), and *that* would get complaints for being 
“best viewed in” dictatorial! 

> It's not dictatorial to expect that of Web designers; it is (or ought
> to be) a basic qualification of the profession, in the same way that,
> if you build a chair that falls apart the moment someone sits a little
> too far to the left in it or clunks the occupant with a clown hammer
> because they didn't do a little dance first, you're objectively a bad
> furniture designer.

The modern web is not designed for you, but the dictator that pays the 
team to put the site together.  If *they* use Lynx, yeah, the site 
would work well in Lynx.  If they give a damn about accessibility, 
that’s what the site will be.  Most *want* you smacked by the clown 
hammer, though . . .

-- 
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly

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Re: "A Forth OS In 46 Bytes" Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2025-06-10 14:09 -0700
  non-mainstream web (browsers) Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-08-09 14:05 +0000
    Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-09 19:53 +0000
      Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 08:53 -0700
        Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-11 21:51 +0000
          Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 14:57 -0700
            Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-13 18:43 +0000
              Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 12:14 -0700
                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2025-08-13 12:48 -0700
                standards Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-08-24 09:30 +0000
                Re: standards sjack@dontemail.me (sjack) - 2025-08-24 16:05 +0000
                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-15 15:14 +0000
                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 09:03 -0700
                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-16 23:36 +0000
                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-17 07:09 +0000
                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-18 10:45 -0700
                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-18 23:25 +0000
                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-19 08:14 -0700
                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-19 21:58 +0000
                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-20 00:39 +0000
                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Doc O'Leary ,   <droleary.usenet@2023.impossiblystupid.com> - 2025-08-25 03:24 +0000
                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) "B. Pym" <Nobody447095@here-nor-there.org> - 2025-08-24 14:42 +0000
                Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl - 2025-08-24 19:41 +0200

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