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Groups > comp.lang.c > #77859 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-12-04 16:06 -0800 |
| Last post | 2015-12-10 10:00 -0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 400 — 31 participants |
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Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 16:06 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-05 13:15 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 16:19 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-12-05 01:18 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-12-04 20:33 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-05 07:55 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-05 09:09 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-05 11:40 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-06 23:33 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-06 23:10 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-06 15:34 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-07 10:14 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-06 16:11 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-07 00:27 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 01:15 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 00:13 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 01:26 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-07 14:51 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-07 02:25 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-07 15:55 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 11:13 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-07 11:32 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-07 12:55 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-07 12:14 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 12:29 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-07 13:49 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-07 13:47 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-07 14:11 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Waldek Hebisch <hebisch@antispam.uni.wroc.pl> - 2015-12-13 00:39 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-13 01:17 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-12 18:21 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-13 08:31 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Udyant Wig <udyantw@gmail.com> - 2015-12-13 15:12 +0530
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-13 03:40 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-13 11:41 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-07 12:55 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-07 11:46 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-08 01:07 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-12-07 09:11 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-07 15:26 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-12-07 08:25 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-07 13:59 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-12-07 09:06 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 14:12 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-07 08:36 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-07 21:01 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-07 15:16 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2015-12-08 13:58 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-12-07 12:11 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 11:06 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-07 13:02 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 14:37 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 15:17 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 21:39 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 23:04 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-08 01:19 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-08 01:12 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-08 09:11 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-07 17:19 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 22:50 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-08 01:26 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-08 01:27 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Udyant Wig <udyantw@gmail.com> - 2015-12-09 17:22 +0530
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-09 13:15 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-09 13:07 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-08 07:54 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-07 23:41 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-12-07 17:50 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-12-07 19:43 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 23:14 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-22 06:45 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-12-07 12:00 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 09:04 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 19:59 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 12:14 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 12:45 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 19:56 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 01:58 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 11:48 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 19:09 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 19:41 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 23:26 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-07 11:38 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 02:52 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-07 13:04 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 05:10 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 13:57 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 08:20 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 08:42 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 17:19 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 09:27 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 17:41 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 09:46 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 09:50 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 18:09 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 10:17 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-07 10:21 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-07 15:33 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 08:50 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-12-07 13:43 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 10:54 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-07 11:00 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-07 13:07 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-07 04:19 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-07 13:58 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-07 12:32 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 20:57 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-08 00:10 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-07 15:40 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-08 12:55 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-08 00:43 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-08 01:28 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-08 01:53 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-08 16:44 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-08 17:47 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-08 10:46 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-08 19:27 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-08 12:30 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-08 12:37 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-08 21:47 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-08 23:20 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-09 01:15 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-09 02:07 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-09 13:24 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-09 14:54 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-09 15:20 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-09 07:59 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-09 21:43 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-09 08:45 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-22 06:45 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-08 19:20 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-10 21:01 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-12-10 16:31 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-10 14:03 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-11 02:16 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-11 10:20 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-11 02:24 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-11 10:39 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-11 03:20 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-11 12:02 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2015-12-11 13:06 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-10 21:46 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-11 10:57 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-10 22:09 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-11 11:22 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-12-10 17:27 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-10 23:07 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-11 00:11 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-11 00:25 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-11 01:42 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-11 02:36 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-11 02:55 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Udyant Wig <udyantw@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 20:04 +0530
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-11 02:22 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-11 10:33 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2015-12-11 13:28 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-11 12:30 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-11 11:23 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-11 12:38 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-11 14:21 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-11 14:55 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-11 15:19 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-11 15:28 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-11 08:46 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-12-11 12:18 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-11 12:27 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-11 17:30 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-11 08:51 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-12-17 10:55 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-17 11:24 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-11 18:04 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-12 08:58 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-11 22:08 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-12 11:32 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-11 22:48 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-12 11:57 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-11 15:33 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-11 23:43 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-11 20:37 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-11 23:23 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-12 00:01 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-12 02:15 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-12 11:15 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-13 00:52 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-13 02:05 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-12 18:35 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-13 13:35 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-13 11:48 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-13 20:36 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-13 13:14 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2015-12-13 21:38 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-13 22:35 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-13 14:48 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-13 23:05 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-12-13 18:08 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-13 15:44 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-14 00:42 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-13 19:48 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 06:58 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-14 00:04 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-14 12:12 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-14 08:07 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-14 17:23 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-14 10:58 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-14 12:29 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-14 14:52 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-14 19:37 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-14 20:33 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-15 09:45 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-14 13:16 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-14 21:34 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-14 21:45 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-14 22:00 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-14 22:23 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-14 14:41 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-14 23:38 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-15 00:50 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-14 17:00 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-15 01:20 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-15 11:41 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-15 04:03 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-15 12:47 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-15 05:42 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-15 14:11 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-15 06:24 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-15 17:13 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-15 08:57 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-15 11:05 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-16 03:52 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-16 05:38 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 22:30 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-16 11:17 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 05:38 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-16 15:02 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 06:10 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-16 14:47 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 07:09 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-16 08:11 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 09:04 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 09:21 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-16 15:19 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-16 07:33 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-16 15:34 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-16 15:54 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-16 21:11 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-16 22:36 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-16 15:33 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix ais523 <ais523@nethack4.org> - 2015-12-24 09:02 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-25 09:12 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix ais523 <ais523@nethack4.org> - 2015-12-28 07:15 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-12-27 18:40 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-17 00:39 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-17 02:22 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-16 11:00 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-16 16:06 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-16 08:52 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-16 21:24 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-16 16:04 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-17 00:55 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 19:45 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-17 01:54 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-16 22:43 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-17 04:34 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-17 08:46 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-16 23:45 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-12-17 16:14 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-17 14:12 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-17 22:42 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-12-17 18:21 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-12-17 18:43 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-18 00:21 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-17 17:01 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-16 22:38 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-17 06:25 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-12-17 17:10 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-17 15:04 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-12-17 17:24 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-16 12:26 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-16 14:46 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-16 07:14 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 07:28 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-16 15:28 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-16 07:40 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-16 16:58 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-16 09:02 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-17 13:58 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-17 09:38 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-12-17 12:31 -0600
Re: Prefix and postfix raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-17 21:07 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-18 11:35 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-18 11:12 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-19 15:08 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-19 19:36 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-19 21:08 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-20 00:48 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-20 09:51 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-19 12:09 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-19 23:13 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-19 14:50 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-12-19 17:18 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-19 14:56 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-12-19 18:04 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-28 05:12 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-19 21:42 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-20 09:42 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-20 08:54 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-21 17:04 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-21 18:34 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-22 15:47 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> - 2015-12-22 07:09 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-22 21:56 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-12-22 12:12 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Paul <nospam@needed.com> - 2015-12-22 06:49 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-12-22 14:44 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-28 05:13 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-20 21:45 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-20 19:04 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-21 10:51 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-21 12:22 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-20 21:49 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-20 06:36 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-20 18:42 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-20 15:28 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-20 09:17 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-21 08:10 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-21 08:06 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-20 19:58 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix "D. Lowe" <d.lowe@openmailbox.org> - 2015-12-20 21:16 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix "D. Lowe" <d.lowe@openmailbox.org> - 2015-12-20 21:22 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-12-20 16:39 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix "D. Lowe" <d.lowe@openmailbox.org> - 2015-12-20 21:57 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-18 11:18 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-18 11:50 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-18 04:04 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-18 22:56 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-18 20:28 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-19 22:13 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-18 09:31 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-18 08:44 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-19 12:44 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-19 11:59 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-19 15:18 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-20 11:32 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-20 09:58 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-16 17:05 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-16 21:27 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-17 02:39 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-16 08:20 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-16 15:52 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-16 18:51 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-16 08:19 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-17 00:16 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-15 11:07 +1300
Re: Prefix and postfix Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-12-14 19:53 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-15 01:14 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-12-14 20:42 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-14 20:50 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-15 02:00 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-14 21:27 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-15 10:45 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 03:20 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-15 08:25 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-15 14:38 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-15 11:12 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-15 08:53 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-15 18:10 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-15 11:50 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-15 20:13 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-15 13:21 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-15 22:13 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-15 16:40 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-16 01:48 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-15 23:56 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-16 11:38 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-16 14:11 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-15 17:23 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-16 02:51 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-14 08:18 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-14 09:10 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-14 09:22 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-12-14 12:28 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-14 09:41 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-14 11:13 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 12:42 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-14 09:05 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-13 12:24 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-13 13:17 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-12-11 19:56 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-12-11 20:09 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-12-11 12:44 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-11 21:52 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-13 20:25 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix Ken Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2015-12-11 12:58 -0500
Re: Prefix and postfix supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-08 11:54 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-09 11:59 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-08 09:41 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-08 09:45 +0100
Re: Prefix and postfix Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-07 00:31 +0000
Re: Prefix and postfix John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2015-12-10 08:56 -0800
Re: Prefix and postfix "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-12-10 10:00 -0800
Page 9 of 20 — ← Prev page 1 … 7 8 [9] 10 11 … 20 Next page →
| From | Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 14:55 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n4eo0q$8ai$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #78424 |
On 11/12/15 14:21, BartC wrote: > On 11/12/2015 12:38, Richard Heathfield wrote: >> On 11/12/15 11:23, BartC wrote: > >>> Did you try it at the start of a line, or also in the middle of a line? >> >> Neither. I typed ^Z *after* a line. > > Clearly you're keen on making it extra confusing to users by making a > distinction between the end of one line, and the beginning of another! The line doesn't exist until you type something other than the stream termination keystroke, so how can you be at the start of it? Clearly you are trying to make it extra confusing to users by referring to a non-existent entity as having a start. A line is a sequence of 0 or more characters followed by a newline character. Once you've typed the newline character, you have created a new line (hence the name), and that line is sent to the program from the environment's buffer. Now you have two choices - you can stop there, or you can start typing again. If you start typing again, /then/ you are constructing another line, and you might reasonably say that you're at the start of it. But not until that point. I wouldn't explain all this to a user, though, because I wouldn't need to. It's obvious. And *all* this stuff is obvious. -- Richard Heathfield Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999 Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | BartC <bc@freeuk.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 15:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n4epe2$eat$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #78426 |
On 11/12/2015 14:55, Richard Heathfield wrote: > On 11/12/15 14:21, BartC wrote: >> On 11/12/2015 12:38, Richard Heathfield wrote: >>> On 11/12/15 11:23, BartC wrote: >> >>>> Did you try it at the start of a line, or also in the middle of a line? >>> >>> Neither. I typed ^Z *after* a line. >> >> Clearly you're keen on making it extra confusing to users by making a >> distinction between the end of one line, and the beginning of another! > > The line doesn't exist until you type something other than the stream > termination keystroke, so how can you be at the start of it? Clearly you > are trying to make it extra confusing to users by referring to a > non-existent entity as having a start. > > A line is a sequence of 0 or more characters followed by a newline > character. Once you've typed the newline character, you have created a > new line (hence the name), and that line is sent to the program from the > environment's buffer. > > Now you have two choices - you can stop there, or you can start typing > again. If you start typing again, /then/ you are constructing another > line, and you might reasonably say that you're at the start of it. But > not until that point. > > I wouldn't explain all this to a user, though, because I wouldn't need > to. It's obvious. > > And *all* this stuff is obvious. I think it's you who are deliberately obfuscating matters. Suppose I'm looking over a typist's shoulder and relaying what is being typed to a distant third party. "What's been typed so far?" "Well it's this set of words with a hash sign in there" "A hash sign? Is that at the beginning or end of the line?" "I can't say. Because the Enter key hasn't pressed yet, the line doesn't officially exist, so it doesn't have a start or an end". "But unoffically?" "It's at the start" Or: "What's the typist done so far?" "Nothing yet, he's just started. He's staring at the screen at the minute" "That's fine then. Tell him it's been called off and he can push the Quit button" "Will do. But one small snag: Quit can only be pressed *after* a line." "Hmmm, I see what you mean. Well, tell him to first type an empty line, *then* press Quit" "Brilliant!" -- Bartc
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 15:28 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n4epte$g0d$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #78427 |
On 11/12/15 15:19, BartC wrote: > On 11/12/2015 14:55, Richard Heathfield wrote: <snip> >> >> I wouldn't explain all this to a user, though, because I wouldn't need >> to. It's obvious. >> >> And *all* this stuff is obvious. > > I think it's you who are deliberately obfuscating matters. I wish you the very best in all your future endeavours. -- Richard Heathfield Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999 Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | supercat@casperkitty.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 08:46 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <3ac85ef7-69ac-48d2-8205-12e42182740c@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #78426 |
On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 8:55:59 AM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote: > And *all* this stuff is obvious. What is the real purpose of control-D when using buffered-input (not raw) mode. The act of typing control-D at the start of a line is often interpreted as EOF, but it isn't an EOF character. Do you know what it actually does?
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 12:18 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <uzDay.553981$C67.185390@fx02.iad> |
| In reply to | #78430 |
On Friday December 11 2015 11:46, in comp.lang.c, "supercat@casperkitty.com"
<supercat@casperkitty.com> wrote:
> On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 8:55:59 AM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> And *all* this stuff is obvious.
>
> What is the real purpose of control-D when using buffered-input (not raw)
> mode. The act of typing control-D at the start of a line is often
> interpreted as EOF,
Only in Unix-like systems, and only in buffered mode.
> but it isn't an EOF character.
On Unix-like systems, in buffered mode, with the default (ioctl() values for
for buffered-character interpretation, ^D (<control>D) /is/ (for all intents
and purposes) the "EOF character"
> Do you know what it actually does?
You might want to read the POSIX documentation.
For instance, XBD Chapter 11 ("General Terminal Interface"), subsection 11.1.5
("Input Processing and Reading Data") says
Two general kinds of input processing are available, determined by whether
the terminal device file is in canonical mode or non-canonical mode. These
modes are described in Canonical Mode Input Processing and Non-Canonical
Mode Input Processing. Additionally, input characters are processed
according to the c_iflag (see Input Modes) and c_lflag (see Local Modes)
fields. Such processing can include ``echoing'', which in general means
transmitting input characters immediately back to the terminal when they are
received from the terminal. This is useful for terminals that can operate in
full-duplex mode.
Subsection 11.1.6 ("Canonical Mode Input Processing") says
In canonical mode input processing, terminal input is processed in units of
lines. A line is delimited by a newline character (NL), an end-of-file
character (EOF), or an end-of-line (EOL) character. See Special Characters
for more information on EOF and EOL.
Subsection 11.1.9 ("Special Characters") says
EOF
Special character on input, which is recognized if the ICANON flag is set.
When received, all the bytes waiting to be read are immediately passed to
the process without waiting for a newline, and the EOF is discarded. Thus,
if there are no bytes waiting (that is, the EOF occurred at the beginning
of a line), a byte count of zero shall be returned from the read(),
representing an end-of-file indication. If ICANON is set, the EOF
character shall be discarded when processed.
NL
Special character on input, which is recognized if the ICANON flag is set.
It is the line delimiter newline. It cannot be changed.
EOL
Special character on input, which is recognized if the ICANON flag is set.
It is an additional line delimiter, like NL.
Subsection 11.2.6 ("Special Control Characters") details how the
various "Special Characters" are mapped. The characters that Canonical mode
will interpret as EOF and EOL are specified as being stored in an array, with
values that can be modified by an tcsetattr() call. The default value for the
EOF special character is 0x04 (^D). There is no default value for the EOL
special character.
Note that 11.2.6 specifies other "Special Control Characters" that are
alterable through a tcsetattr() call, including INTR (the Interrupt
character, typically 0x03 (^C)), and SUSP (the job control Suspend character,
typically 0x1a (^Z)).
--
Lew Pitcher
"In Skills, We Trust"
PGP public key available upon request
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| From | Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 12:27 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <lnvb84hgs1.fsf@kst-u.example.com> |
| In reply to | #78438 |
Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> writes:
> On Friday December 11 2015 11:46, in comp.lang.c, "supercat@casperkitty.com"
> <supercat@casperkitty.com> wrote:
[...]
>> but it isn't an EOF character.
>
> On Unix-like systems, in buffered mode, with the default (ioctl() values for
> for buffered-character interpretation, ^D (<control>D) /is/ (for all intents
> and purposes) the "EOF character"
The term "EOF" is being used in two different senses here.
In C, EOF is a macro that expands to a negative integer constant
expression that is the value returned by getchar() on an end-of-file
or error condition. In that sense, there is no "EOF character",
because EOF is not a character.
In the context of a Unix tty driver, Ctrl-D is the default "EOF
character", but of course the term is not being used in the C sense.
It might be better to refer to it as the "eof character" instead.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 17:30 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <87mvtgriz2.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #78430 |
supercat@casperkitty.com writes:
> On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 8:55:59 AM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> And *all* this stuff is obvious.
>
> What is the real purpose of control-D when using buffered-input (not raw)
> mode. The act of typing control-D at the start of a line is often interpreted
> as EOF, but it isn't an EOF character. Do you know what it actually
> does?
On a Unix-like system, when a program's input is coming from "the
keyboard" it is actually being provided by a virtual device -- a
pseudo-tty. That device provides some simple editing and buffer control
so you can, for example, edit a line before the program sees it. That
device driver can also be configured to react to various keys and key
sequences. These bound characters don't get put in the data buffer but,
instead, cause actions internal to the driver. Common bindings mean
that when the buffer is empty, ^D will probably cause the driver to
close the input stream. A program reading from it's input will be told
"no data". When the buffer is not empty (i.e. there's been some data
typed but no newline yet) two consecutive ^Ds are needed to get that
effect.
Other common bindings include ^U to throw away the current (unfinished)
line, ^C to send the reading program an interrupt signal, ^\ to send it
a quit signal and ^Z to suspend it and detach it from the terminal.
None of these are characters that get sent to the program but you may
bind a key stroke to the "lnext" action ("literal next", usually ^V) so
you can send your program a ^D or and ^\ if you need to.
Almost every system I've used for several decades behaves like this
"out of the box" so it becomes second nature to use these keys.
--
Ben.
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| From | Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 08:51 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <lnegethqse.fsf@kst-u.example.com> |
| In reply to | #78424 |
BartC <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
> On 11/12/2015 12:38, Richard Heathfield wrote:
[...]
>> Standard input is line-oriented. A line is terminated by a newline
>> character.
>
> My experiments show that that isn't always the case. If you've already
> typed AB, then ^Z will abort the program (Unix), ^D will complete the
> line, without the newline (Unix), ^C will also abort (Unix), ^D will
> appear as character 4 (Windows), ^C will lose the abort the line and
> return EOF (Windows).
On Unix, Ctrl-Z doesn't abort the program. It suspends it. (This
behavior can be reconfigured or disabled.) You can list suspended jobs
using the "jobs" command, or resume a suspended job's execution using
the "fg" command.
Ctrl-D (also reconfigurable) is the "eof" character. Typing Ctrl-D at
the beginning of input, or immediately after a newline, or immediately
after another Ctrl-D, causes getchar() to return EOF. Typing Ctrl-D in
another context causes the partial line to be delivered to the program,
bypassing the default line buffering. Typing Ctrl-D twice in the middle
of a line causes getchar() to return EOF with a partial line (the
program won't see a '\n' character). (Ctrl-D, IIRC, has no special
meaning on Windows, so there's no point in testing it there.)
Ctrl-C aborts the program by sending the SIGINT signal. Ctrl-\ also
aborts the program, by sending the SIGQUIT signal. In either case,
getchar() doesn't return. (Both characters can be reconfigured or
disabled, and/or a program can reconfigure the way it handles signals.)
Windows uses Ctrl-Z to trigger an end-of-file condition, similar to the
way Unix uses Ctrl-D. I don't know the details of how Windows handles
Ctrl-Z at the beginning, end, or middle of an input line; I wouldn't be
surprised if it differs from the way Unix handles Ctrl-D. I suppose
it's a bit confusing that Ctrl-Z is used by both Unix and Windows, but
with different meanings, but anyone with experience on both systems
should be able to cope with it.
>> After I'd typed the newline character, I was at the end of a
>> line, not the start of one.
>
> No. See the above. You are physically at the start of the next line.
> Logically you can be at the end of one, *and* at the start of the next.
> So 'Start of the line' wins.
Whatever. I don't have much problem saying you're at the start of
a line -- but Richard makes a valid point, that if you type Ctrl-D
immediately after a newline, there is no line for you to be at the
start of.
>> You seem to be suggesting that I should tell my program that input is
>> complete, when it cannot possibly be complete because I'm only partway
>> through a line. I'm sorry, but that's just plain daft.
>
> In a line-oriented file, the last line need not end with a newline. You
> were saying about files and keyboard input being exactly the same ... ?
>
>>> Sound's good, yes?
>>
>> Other than the fact that it's badly conceived, badly written, and
>> factually incorrect, I don't see any other major problems with it.
>
> Which facts aren't correct? That I referred to the start of the line
> rather than the end?
>
> The above would be for an app where lots of data is typed in then it
> does something else (like entering a bunch of words then displaying a
> histogram). On something like interactive Python on Ubuntu and Windows:
>
> ABC^DDEF The ^D is ignored
> ^D Quits
> ABC^Z Unix: Quits; Windows: same as backspace!
> ^Z Quits
> ABC^C Aborts the line with 'KeyboardInterrupt'
> ^C 'Keyboardinterrupt'
Interactive Python on Unix probably reconfigures its tty settings and/or
signal handling. Again, Ctrl-Z on Unix doesn't quit; it suspends the
job, and you can see it by typing the "jobs" command at a shell prompt.
> So a slightly different set of behaviours again. But notice that ^Z can
> be used to quit /in the middle of a line/ (or rather, at the end as you
> can't type anything following!).
Yes.
> It's hard to tell whether Python sees those Quit events, so that it can
> do some finalising, or whether the OS just pulls the plug. This is the
> sort of info I would need.
When you type Ctrl-Z on Unix, nothing is delivered to stdin. The tty
driver causes a signal to be delivered to the running process, and that
signal causes the process to be suspended.
The Python process prints "KeyboardInterrupt" and continues running, so
it must be handling the SIGINT signal that was generated when you typed
Ctrl-C. As for Ctrl-Z, the Python process isn't handling it; the
process is forcibly suspended by the OS, via delivery of a SIGTSTP
signal. (I don't think a process can handle SIGTSTP, but it can change
the tty settings so Ctrl-Z doesn't cause a SIGTSTP signal to be
delivered).
[...]
>> You don't like text streams, obviously. That's your problem, though,
>> isn't it?
>
> Text streams are fine. But they're not a file. They don't need to have a
> concept of an EOF just because you're trying to make them like files.
Unix allows a text stream to be attached to a file, to a pipe, or to a
keyboard. This isn't the only way I/O could have been organized, but it
has a lot of advantages.
For example, say I have a program that's designed to filter stdin to
stdout. I can run that program from the command line, type some input
to it, and then type Ctrl-D. The program doesn't know or care where its
input is coming from.
Programs that are intended only for interactive use (like text editors)
can reconfigure their signal handling and tty settings.
> There's all this stuff with Ctrl Z, Ctrl D and Ctrl C which really have
> little to do with emulating EOF, which they do badly, and more to do
> with process control.
Ctrl-Z and Ctrl-C are for process control, and have nothing to do with
emulating EOF. Ctrl-D triggers and end-of-file condition, and has
nothing to do with process control. If you don't understand that, Unix
behavior is going to be confusing.
[...]
> I find keeping these separate makes things a lot simpler than trying to
> unify them.
Decades of experience with Unix experience say otherwise.
[...]
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
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| From | Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-17 10:55 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.30dca513e7422058c2@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #78432 |
Keith Thompson wrote: > When you type Ctrl-Z on Unix, nothing is delivered to stdin. The tty > driver causes a signal to be delivered to the running process, and that > signal causes the process to be suspended. ... (I don't think a process > can handle SIGTSTP, but it can change the tty settings so Ctrl-Z doesn't > cause a SIGTSTP signal to be delivered). SIGTSTP can be handled or ignored. For example, vi handles SIGTSTP to put the display and serial driver back in normal mode and put the cursor at the bottom before it suspends itself.
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| From | Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-17 11:24 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <lnh9jg98vg.fsf@kst-u.example.com> |
| In reply to | #78868 |
Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> writes:
> Keith Thompson wrote:
>> When you type Ctrl-Z on Unix, nothing is delivered to stdin. The tty
>> driver causes a signal to be delivered to the running process, and that
>> signal causes the process to be suspended. ... (I don't think a process
>> can handle SIGTSTP, but it can change the tty settings so Ctrl-Z doesn't
>> cause a SIGTSTP signal to be delivered).
>
> SIGTSTP can be handled or ignored. For example, vi handles SIGTSTP to
> put the display and serial driver back in normal mode and put the
> cursor at the bottom before it suspends itself.
You're right. SIGKILL (the signal sent by `kill -9`) and SIGSTOP
cannot be caught or ignored. SIGTSTP and SIGSTOP do similar
things by default. SIGTSTP is the signal normally sent by Ctrl-Z.
Explicitly doing `kill -STOP ...` on a vi process will suspend it
without giving it a chance to do anything.
Of course all this is system-specific, as is the existence of any
signals other than the 6 listed in section 7.14 of the standard:
SIGABRT, SIGFPE, SIGILL, SIGINT, SIGSEGV, SIGTERM.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 18:04 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <n4eviv$8h6$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #78424 |
On 11/12/15 15:21, BartC wrote: <snip> > > My experiments show that that isn't always the case. If you've already > typed AB, then ^Z will abort the program (Unix), ^D will complete the > line, without the newline (Unix), ^C will also abort (Unix), ^D will > appear as character 4 (Windows), ^C will lose the abort the line and > return EOF (Windows). > <snip> > ABC^DDEF The ^D is ignored > ^D Quits > ABC^Z Unix: Quits; Windows: same as backspace! > ^Z Quits > ABC^C Aborts the line with 'KeyboardInterrupt' > ^C 'Keyboardinterrupt' > <snip> > So a slightly different set of behaviours again. But notice that ^Z can > be used to quit /in the middle of a line/ (or rather, at the end as you > can't type anything following!). > <snip> You seem to be completely lost about ctrl+Z behaviour in Linux (and other *nix), and the whole concept of job control. You also seem to be completely lost about what a "terminal" is. If you don't want to support or program for Linux, that's fair enough - but if you /do/ want to write console programs that behave the way you want and expect on Linux, then you need to learn some basics - because at the moment, you are looking rather ignorant, and Richard is giving you no more than little hints. First, terminals are very common in the Linux world, especially for more experienced users. I currently have some 20+ terminals open on my Linux work computer - it's typically 50 or more, but my machine was restarted last week due to a power cut. On my Windows machine I have 4, which is slightly below average for me. There are all sorts of ways terminals can be used, and how they can be connected to programs. You seem to be thinking in terms of either the extremely limited Windows terminal, or only a single-user, single-screen no gui terminal on Linux. The great majority of terminals used on Linux systems are from within a gui, and support a lot more features than the "dumb terminals" of days gone by. And "terminal getting disconnected" does not usually mean "the dog chewed through the cable", though serial consoles are still very much in use in particular circumstances. More commonly, it means the terminal window was closed, the ssh session stopped, or the "screen" session was closed. Second, while Windows is historically a front-end to a single-tasking system, Linux is multi-tasking at heart. Within a single terminal, it is common to have multiple processes running at once. Sometimes you'll do this with pipes, and sometimes you'll do this by starting a job in the background (using "cmd &" format). If you have a job running in the foreground, you can use ctrl-Z to put it into the background so that you can do something else - you then use "fg" to bring it into the foreground again. So when you talk about ctrl-Z "quiting" the program in Linux, you've got it completely wrong. The message that is "stopped" is telling you that the job is stopped for now, and put in the background - it will continue as soon as you type "fg". If you type "jobs", you will see the jobs that are running in the background in that terminal.
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| From | Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-12 08:58 +1300 |
| Message-ID | <dd0o7sFo5q0U9@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #78437 |
David Brown wrote: > On 11/12/15 15:21, BartC wrote: > <snip> >> >> My experiments show that that isn't always the case. If you've already >> typed AB, then ^Z will abort the program (Unix), ^D will complete the >> line, without the newline (Unix), ^C will also abort (Unix), ^D will >> appear as character 4 (Windows), ^C will lose the abort the line and >> return EOF (Windows). >> > <snip> >> ABC^DDEF The ^D is ignored >> ^D Quits >> ABC^Z Unix: Quits; Windows: same as backspace! >> ^Z Quits >> ABC^C Aborts the line with 'KeyboardInterrupt' >> ^C 'Keyboardinterrupt' >> > <snip> >> So a slightly different set of behaviours again. But notice that ^Z can >> be used to quit /in the middle of a line/ (or rather, at the end as you >> can't type anything following!). >> > <snip> > > You seem to be completely lost This would have been a good place to stop! -- Ian Collins
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| From | BartC <bc@freeuk.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 22:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n4fhdo$isu$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #78437 |
On 11/12/2015 17:04, David Brown wrote: > On 11/12/15 15:21, BartC wrote: > You seem to be completely lost about ctrl+Z behaviour in Linux (and > other *nix), and the whole concept of job control. You also seem to be > completely lost about what a "terminal" is. If you don't want to > support or program for Linux, that's fair enough - but if you /do/ want > to write console programs that behave the way you want and expect on > Linux, I'd like programs to work on Linux but not simply doing things the Linux way. Anybody can do that, nobody attempts anything else, and there will still be people talking about this 40 years in the future. then you need to learn some basics - because at the moment, you > are looking rather ignorant, I'm not that bothered about that when it comes Unix. Linux. Whatever it likes to be called. These are my comments that started this sub-thread: "(And actually, writing little C programs using a getchar loop that exits on EOF, that's a bit awkward to test - how to do I stop it? I can never remember which of Ctrl D, Ctrl Z or Ctrl C to press so that it generates EOF. Awkward for users too. Another problem is that while you try and write a character-at-a-time input loop in C, terminated by EOF, input tends to be line-buffered to confuse matters further.)" The issue was how to get EOF into a program. Apparently, it's Ctrl D on Unix (at the START of the line). Ctrl Z and Ctrl C do different things. While on Windows, it's the opposite way, and both Ctrl Z and Ctrl C can deliver the EOF character, while Ctrl D does little. This introduces a little problem: Suppose I want the program to display something like this, in a platform-neutral manner? Press ? when you've finished entering data. what do I write for "?"? Surely something that simple shouldn't be platform-specific! Hence I'd rather use a different key that can be used on both, if it has to be a single key. Usually, the console programs I write tend to work on actual commands not single keys. Although if I've taken over the line-buffering, sometimes I use Escape. I normally disable Ctrl C and the like as I don't want to lose a pile of work if pressed by mistake. So EOF doesn't need to enter it at all in a normal program. > and Richard is giving you no more than > little hints. I thought he was either trolling or bullying. Why else would he object to my saying that the second of these examples has the Ctrl D at the start of the line? AB^D ^D It /might/ be considered to be after the last line, but so would AB^D (as apparently 'AB' doesn't yet properly exist). And he refused to respond to the observation in my dialogue that, if ^D is the first thing you want to enter into a program, there isn't any previous line for it to be 'after'. -- Bartc
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| From | Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-12 11:32 +1300 |
| Message-ID | <dd118jFo5q0U10@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #78465 |
BartC wrote: > On 11/12/2015 17:04, David Brown wrote: >> On 11/12/15 15:21, BartC wrote: > >> You seem to be completely lost about ctrl+Z behaviour in Linux (and >> other *nix), and the whole concept of job control. You also seem to be >> completely lost about what a "terminal" is. If you don't want to >> support or program for Linux, that's fair enough - but if you /do/ want >> to write console programs that behave the way you want and expect on >> Linux, > > I'd like programs to work on Linux but not simply doing things the Linux > way. Anybody can do that, nobody attempts anything else, and there will > still be people talking about this 40 years in the future. > > then you need to learn some basics - because at the moment, you >> are looking rather ignorant, > > I'm not that bothered about that when it comes Unix. Linux. Whatever it > likes to be called. So why do you keep whinging? > This introduces a little problem: Suppose I want the program to display > something like this, in a platform-neutral manner? > > Press ? when you've finished entering data. > > what do I write for "?"? Surely something that simple shouldn't be > platform-specific! Well it is and that isn't going to change any time soon or even ever. So you better get used to it. -- Ian Collins
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| From | BartC <bc@freeuk.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 22:48 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n4fjo4$rag$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #78466 |
On 11/12/2015 22:32, Ian Collins wrote: >> I'm not that bothered about that when it comes Unix. Linux. Whatever it >> likes to be called. > > So why do you keep whinging? Is the C language supposed to be platform-independent or not? That used to be a big deal around here. Because it seems that an awful lot of Unix seems to have found its way into it. (That's apart from all the Unix infrastructure needed by many C open source apps just to get built. Even cross-platform ones!) We're talking the simplest kind of program, getting input from a keyboard. And even that apparently can't be done without kowtowing to Unix! >> This introduces a little problem: Suppose I want the program to display >> something like this, in a platform-neutral manner? >> >> Press ? when you've finished entering data. >> >> what do I write for "?"? Surely something that simple shouldn't be >> platform-specific! > > Well it is and that isn't going to change any time soon or even ever. So > you better get used to it. So it's Unix or nothing? -- Bartc
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| From | Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-12 11:57 +1300 |
| Message-ID | <dd12mdFo5q0U11@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #78467 |
BartC wrote: > On 11/12/2015 22:32, Ian Collins wrote: > >>> I'm not that bothered about that when it comes Unix. Linux. Whatever it >>> likes to be called. >> >> So why do you keep whinging? > > Is the C language supposed to be platform-independent or not? That used > to be a big deal around here. The code is platform independent, how to enter characters to a running programme isn't. So that's the end of it as far as C is concerned. If some new platform comes along that uses the wibble key to generate an end of file condition, nothing in the source will have to change. > Because it seems that an awful lot of Unix seems to have found its way > into it. Learn your history. >>> This introduces a little problem: Suppose I want the program to display >>> something like this, in a platform-neutral manner? >>> >>> Press ? when you've finished entering data. >>> >>> what do I write for "?"? Surely something that simple shouldn't be >>> platform-specific! >> >> Well it is and that isn't going to change any time soon or even ever. So >> you better get used to it. > > So it's Unix or nothing? No, it's a choice between understanding your platform or whinge and moan on Usenet. You appear to have trouble with the former and a liking for the latter. -- Ian Collins
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| From | supercat@casperkitty.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 15:33 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <3272b57c-df52-4e51-93b7-5ea510265008@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #78469 |
On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 4:57:26 PM UTC-6, Ian Collins wrote: > The code is platform independent, how to enter characters to a running > programme isn't. So that's the end of it as far as C is concerned. If > some new platform comes along that uses the wibble key to generate an > end of file condition, nothing in the source will have to change. Code which uses a platform's default means of entering characters is platform-independent; code which wants to use input semantics which are available on many but not all platforms, however, will frequently have to be annoyingly platform dependent because even though many platforms could accommodate a request for raw keyboard input with varying degrees of control (e.g. some could report whether a key is held down; others cannot) there is no standard means of querying platform capabilities or making use of common capabilities which a platform may have.
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| From | BartC <bc@freeuk.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 23:43 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n4fmvv$b17$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #78469 |
On 11/12/2015 22:57, Ian Collins wrote: > BartC wrote: >> So it's Unix or nothing? > > No, it's a choice between understanding your platform or whinge and moan > on Usenet. You appear to have trouble with the former and a liking for > the latter. I find all platforms a nuisance, but I can usually deal with them long enough so that I can implement an extra layer between my code and the OS, then I can forget about the details again. This is the code I used to implement getch() and kbhit() under Linux: http://pastebin.com/AUNz7SiG (Not my code, but adapted for the way I was processing it at the time.) And this is the code I used to implement getch() and kbhit() under Windows (os_getch, os_kbhit here): http://pastebin.com/jtjciECv I have to use these now because the original getch()/kbhit() of conio.h are not really available any more. I use them for quick and dirty control of the keyboard when I don't want to do full GUI. But the discussion came about from using low-level, raw C file routines for simple exercises involving getchar(), EOF-checking and so on. Then knowing how to force the EOF code into the character stream becomes more important. -- Bartc
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| From | Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 20:37 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <28b34377-1032-4d20-9252-1117ff4b037b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #78467 |
On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 10:49:08 PM UTC, Bart wrote: > On 11/12/2015 22:32, Ian Collins wrote: > > Is the C language supposed to be platform-independent or not? That used > to be a big deal around here. > Subroutines are platform independent. Programs generally aren't. A "filter" type program which takes input from stdin and passes the results to stdout is pretty portable, but is only useful on systems with the infrastructure of pipes set up. A "file manipulation" program that takes a filename and some options as an argument and produces another file as output is more likely to be generally usable, but it can't be very complicated, or it will require backing data, and there's no way to set that up portably. Programs that run on embedded systems, use the console as a character raster, put up windows, or access other OS services like the internet connection, aren't portable. However most programs can be thought of as core logic, which does the operation the user is interested in, then the code around that which enables him to communicate his intentions. Sometimes that can be very elaborate, for example, if you want to draw a coloured text string, the core logic is simply "set font rasteriser to use rgba as foreground colour", and you pass in four values. Getting those four values from the user can involve colour wheels, sliders, pre-defined palettes stored in backing store, goodness know what.
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-12-11 23:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <87bn9wr2mb.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #78465 |
BartC <bc@freeuk.com> writes: <snip> > The issue was how to get EOF into a program. You can't get EOF "into" a program. You can get some part of the software between the program and the keyboard to cause C's IO operations to fail as if the stream is at end-of-file. They usually fail by returning a negative integer value EOF, but not always (fgets, for example, does not). > Apparently, it's Ctrl D > on Unix (at the START of the line). Not at the start of a line but (almost the same thing) when the line buffer is empty. When the buffer is not empty, ^D flushes it so that your program can read the data. As a result, a second ^D (immediately following the first) will close the input because the buffer is now empty. <snip> > While on Windows, it's the opposite way, and both Ctrl Z and Ctrl C > can deliver the EOF character, while Ctrl D does little. It works quite differently. For one thing, if I remember properly, with plain C input you have to type enter. Then, some part of the run-time system (I'm not sure which), marks the stream so that all further C IO operations will behave as if it is closed. This is part of the text-stream processing that Windows and MSDOS provides -- the same processing of the raw input that map line endings. ^Z will have no effect at all if the stream being read was opened in binary mode so it's no more a "real" eof character than any other. ^C does not "deliver the EOF character" on any system that I know about. > This introduces a little problem: Suppose I want the program to > display something like this, in a platform-neutral manner? > > Press ? when you've finished entering data. > > what do I write for "?"? A common choice is something like "a single dot on a line by itself", or "an empty line". > Surely something that simple shouldn't be > platform-specific! Your program can choose to stop on any particular input you like, but the system's way of closing the input stream is bound to be system specific unless everyone decides to settle on the least common denominator of what various systems can do (and I doubt you'd like that). > Hence I'd rather use a different key that can be used on both, if it > has to be a single key. > > Usually, the console programs I write tend to work on actual commands > not single keys. Although if I've taken over the line-buffering, > sometimes I use Escape. I normally disable Ctrl C and the like as I > don't want to lose a pile of work if pressed by mistake. > > So EOF doesn't need to enter it at all in a normal program. Odd, but they are your program and you like them to work like that. It's unlikely that I'll even use one of them so I really should not complain about how you like to to the input handling. <snip> -- Ben.
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