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Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ###

From Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups comp.theory, comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ###
Date 2024-05-18 11:11 -0400
Organization i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID <v2ager$1ct7o$3@i2pn2.org> (permalink)
References (23 earlier) <v256fc$1kais$1@dont-email.me> <v27d05$25ga0$1@dont-email.me> <v2838r$29rd7$1@dont-email.me> <v2a8th$2ps09$1@dont-email.me> <v2ag75$2r74q$1@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 5/18/24 11:07 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/18/2024 8:02 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-05-17 17:14:01 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 5/17/2024 5:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-05-16 14:50:19 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/2024 5:48 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-05-15 15:24:57 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/15/2024 3:18 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-14 14:35:42 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2024 4:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-13 14:43:09 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2024 4:14 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-13 04:54:30 +0000, immibis said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/05/24 19:55, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [ Followup-To: set ]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In comp.theory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [ .... ]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've tried out your much spammed code on GCC (see below). 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is clear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have never built or run this code, which ironically 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't reach Line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06.  It can't even reach line 00.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard tried to get away with D never simulated by H as 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an example
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of D simulated by H:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <v0ummt$2qov3$2@i2pn2.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/1/2024 7:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *That people say they know I am wrong yet will not show 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the detailed*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *steps of how I am wrong indicates that they are probably 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liars*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have said, or at least implied that your code fragment 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is runnable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you are the liar, here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 09 int main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .  These are the diagnostics generated by GCC:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And the halting problem is about Turing machines, anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not necessarily. The same question can be asked about 
>>>>>>>>>>>> different machines.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The restriction to Turing machines is just one way to ensure 
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> problem is well defined.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well put. All computable functions even if written in C.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You still must ensure that the problem is well defined. With C 
>>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>>> the problem that conforming C programs often fail to be 
>>>>>>>>>> strictly conforming.
>>>>>>>>>> If a program is not strictly conforming it may be interpreted 
>>>>>>>>>> as halting
>>>>>>>>>> by some implementation and non-halting or incorrect by another.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)
>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>> 09 int main()
>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One can correctly determine that every D simulated by H
>>>>>>>>> never reaches past its own line 03.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is not strictly conforming and hardly conforming at all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What trivial syntactic error that has no effect
>>>>>>> what-so-ever on the semantics do you believe remains?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A trivial sysntactic error means that the program is not strictly
>>>>>> conforming. It may be conforming if some liberal compiler accepts
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A missing semi-colon?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Normal semantics is that the program is not executed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr x);
>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)
>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>> 09 int main()
>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>>> 12   return 0;
>>>>>>> 13 }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you find any compiler that is liberal enough to accept that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It has been fully operational code under Windows and
>>>>> Linux for two years.
>>>>
>>>> If your compiler does not reject that program it is not a conforming
>>>> C compiler. The semantics according to C standard is that a diagnostic
>>>> message must be given. The standard does not specify what happens if
>>>> you execute that program anyway.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is not nit picky syntax that is the issue here.
>>> The SEMANTICS OF THE C PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE SPECIFIES
>>>
>>> No D simulated correctly by any H of every H/D pair specified
>>> by the above template ever reaches its own line 06 and halts.
>>
>> The standard allows that an program is executed but does not
>> specify what happens when an invalid program is executed.
>>
>>> Fully operational software that runs under Widows and Linux
>>> proves that the above is true EMPIRICALLY.
>>
>> No, it does not. As the program is not strictly comforming
>> and uses a non-standard extension some implementation may
>> execute it differently or refuse to execute.
>>
> 
> None of the code is flagged /std:c17 indicating that all
> the code is conforming.
> 
> You are talking like it is categorically impossible for anyone
> to possibly understand that recursive simulation is isomorphic
> to infinite recursion.
> 
>> Of course, in an implementation that refuses to execute the
>> simulation can not reach the line 06 or any other line.
>>
> 
> typedef int (*ptr)();  // ptr is pointer to int function
> 00 int H(ptr x, ptr y);
> 01 int D(ptr x)
> 02 {
> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
> 04   if (Halt_Status)
> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
> 06   return Halt_Status;
> 07 }
> 08
> 09 int main()
> 10 {
> 11   H(D,D);
> 12   return 0;
> 13 }
> 
> In the above case a simulator is an x86 emulator that correctly emulates
> at least one of the x86 instructions of D in the order specified by the
> x86 instructions of D.
> 
> This may include correctly emulating the x86 instructions of H in the
> order specified by the x86 instructions of H thus calling H(D,D) in
> recursive simulation.
> 
> The key thing to note is that no D correctly simulated by any H of every
> H/D pair specified by the above template ever reaches its own line 06
> and halts.
> 
> 

But that is just a KNOW LIE as I have posted several time today, and 
nearly 3 weeks ago that an H like:


int H(ptr x, ptr y) {
   static flag= 0;
   if (flag) return 0;
   flag = 1;
/* Continue with you standard H but with the omition of the simulaiton 
of the funciton H disableed, so it will simulate the steps of H that it 
sees */

}

WIll be able to correct simulate that D to line 6.

So, you are just proved to be an ignorant pathological lying idiot that 
repeat falsehoods that have been disproven because you just don't care 
abuot the truth, just like the election deniers that you put down.

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Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-05-18 16:02 +0300
  Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-18 10:07 -0500
    Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-18 11:11 -0400
    Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-05-18 21:52 -0400
      Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-05-19 04:22 +0200
        Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-20 11:30 -0700
          Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-20 14:09 -0700
            Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-20 14:12 -0700
              Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-20 14:34 -0700
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 13:29 -0700
            Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-20 16:32 -0500
            Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-05-20 21:46 +0000
      Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-18 22:21 -0500
        Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-18 22:42 -0700
        Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-19 08:08 -0400
          Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-19 12:48 -0700
            Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-05-20 11:16 +0200
              Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-20 14:00 +0200
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-05-20 14:11 +0000
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2024-05-20 16:43 +0000
                Topicality: Who really cares? (Was: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ###) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-05-20 17:45 +0000
                Re: Topicality: Who really cares? (Was: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ###) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-21 11:36 +0200
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-20 11:28 -0700
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-21 11:36 +0200
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-05-21 11:47 -0400
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-21 20:27 +0200
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 12:10 -0700
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 13:13 -0700
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-22 09:59 -0500
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-05-23 11:23 +0300
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 08:09 -0500
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 16:13 -0700
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-05-24 13:08 +0300
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-24 08:03 -0500
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-05-25 12:40 +0300
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-25 06:30 -0500
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-22 10:50 +0200
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 17:27 -0700
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-05-21 06:47 +0200
                Lying meets the standard of losing defamation cases olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 00:03 -0500
                Re: Lying meets the standard of losing defamation cases Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-21 07:54 -0400
                Lying meets the standard of losing defamation cases olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 00:05 -0500
                Re: Lying meets the standard of losing defamation cases Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-21 07:56 -0400
                Re: Lying meets the standard of losing defamation cases Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-05-21 17:28 +0300
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-20 22:35 -0700
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-05-21 08:52 +0000
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-05-21 10:56 +0200
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-21 11:36 +0200
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-05-21 11:48 -0400
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-05-21 18:10 +0200
                Thought control??? (Was: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ###) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-05-21 17:16 +0000
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-21 21:46 -0400
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 20:13 -0700
                Re: Policy dispute (Was: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ###) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-05-22 12:56 +0000
                Re: Policy dispute (Was: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ###) immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-05-22 07:42 +0200
                Policy dispute (Was: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ###) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-05-22 05:32 +0000
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-05-22 18:40 +0200
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-05-22 15:30 +0000
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-05-22 16:15 +0000
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-05-22 11:15 -0400
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 12:12 -0700
                Subway (Was: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ###) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-05-21 19:15 +0000
                Re: Subway (Was: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ###) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 12:51 -0700
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 13:08 -0700
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 13:24 -0700
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-21 13:26 -0700
                Welcome! (Was: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ###) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2024-05-21 21:13 +0000
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-05-22 07:40 +0200
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-05-23 19:29 -0400
                Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-23 17:19 -0700
      Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-05-18 22:45 -0700
        Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2024-05-19 00:48 -0600
  Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-05-18 11:34 -0400
    Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-18 11:44 -0400
      Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2024-05-18 18:01 +0200
        Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-18 12:04 -0400
        Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-18 11:31 -0500
        Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-05-18 12:49 -0400
          Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-18 11:52 -0500
          Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-05-19 13:23 +0300
            Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-05-19 13:23 -0400
      Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-05-18 12:32 -0400
        Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-05-18 12:47 -0400
          Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-05-18 13:01 -0400
            Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-05-18 12:03 -0700
              D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-18 14:10 -0500
              Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-05-19 13:29 +0300
        Re: Every D(D) simulated by H presents non-halting behavior to H ### olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-05-18 13:20 -0500

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