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Groups > comp.lang.c > #111135

Re: C Macros Badly Defined?

From Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: C Macros Badly Defined?
Date 2017-06-01 12:00 -0700
Organization None to speak of
Message-ID <lnbmq7pm7e.fsf@kst-u.example.com> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <267ed825-c65c-4e0f-ad39-29ccbd348e8c@googlegroups.com> <%DEXA.54278$fR7.17881@fx42.iad> <f4bbbd30-c58c-46f7-804a-e9938dea58bb@googlegroups.com> <kfno9u8c6gj.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <94e7a42a-8f7a-4823-9883-4b8ae5988572@googlegroups.com>

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David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> writes:
> On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 4:07:00 AM UTC-7, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>> David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> > [..use of "shall" in the Standard..]
>> >
>> > There isn't any problem connected with what "shall" is being
>> > used to say.  But it isn't being used in its ordinary English
>> > way.  [...]
>> 
>> This assertion is in conflict with all of the ordinary English
>> dictionaries I consulted.
>
> Dictionaries are not a good guide to current usage. "Shall" is
> essentially obsolete in modern English. The modern English
> modal to use would have been "must".

I disagree that "shall" is obsolete.  Shall I provide examples?

In any case, the use of "shall" in this sense is quite common in
standards, particularly ISO standards.

And if it were obsolete, that would be an argument in favor of using it,
since the standard can define what it means in that context with less
risk of conflicting with common usage.

You just need to understand how the standard uses the word, and that's
something you only have to do once.  After that, it shoulnd't be a
problem.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

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Thread

Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-05-24 08:16 -0700
  Re: C Macros Badly Defined? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-05-24 10:43 -0700
    Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-05-24 19:06 +0000
    Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-05-27 06:10 -0700
      Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 12:02 -0700
        Re: C Macros Badly Defined? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-05-27 13:42 -0700
          Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 15:48 -0700
            Re: C Macros Badly Defined? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-05-28 14:40 -0700
            Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-05-29 08:33 -0700
        Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-05-29 08:17 -0700
          Re: C Macros Badly Defined? bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-05-29 16:26 +0100
            Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-05-30 06:13 -0700
              Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2017-05-30 09:57 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-05-30 19:12 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2017-05-30 14:55 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-05-30 15:39 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-05-30 16:03 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-05-30 16:50 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-05-30 17:12 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-05-31 06:30 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-05-31 09:36 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 12:08 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-05-31 19:16 +0000
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 12:35 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-01 04:06 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 10:33 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-01 12:00 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 15:35 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-01 17:26 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 20:48 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-05-31 12:43 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 21:50 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-06-03 11:36 +0000
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2017-06-03 11:44 +0000
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-03 09:19 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2017-06-03 16:22 +0000
                Re: Standards in various formats Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2017-06-01 13:24 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? jadill33@gmail.com - 2017-05-31 13:02 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2017-05-30 22:06 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-31 12:51 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-05-31 06:21 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-31 17:16 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 17:24 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2017-05-31 22:18 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 23:09 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2017-05-31 17:32 -0400
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 23:50 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2017-05-31 18:01 -0400
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 00:33 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2017-05-31 22:36 -0400
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 06:08 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2017-06-01 11:08 -0400
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 01:30 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 11:38 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 03:13 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 12:25 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 04:48 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 14:27 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 05:55 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2017-06-01 11:11 -0400
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 17:40 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-06-02 08:32 +1200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-06-01 23:14 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-06-01 14:41 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-06-02 09:48 +1200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-02 00:56 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-06-02 11:12 +1200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-06-03 11:54 +0000
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Leon Taylor <leontaylor476@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 05:10 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-04 14:32 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-01 21:44 +0000
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-06-03 11:51 +0000
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2017-06-01 21:38 +0000
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-06-02 11:10 +1200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2017-06-01 23:34 +0000
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-06-03 11:48 +0000
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-01 08:56 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-02 14:11 +0200
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-02 10:02 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-06-03 11:45 +0000
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-05-31 09:11 -0700
                Re: C Macros Badly Defined? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2017-06-03 11:29 +0000

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