Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index

From	blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index
Date	2013-08-18 21:16 +0000
Organization	None
Message-ID	<b7crtdFtobdU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	<kugb9m$ups$1@dont-email.me> <slrnl0nodm.2m9.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid> <b7a5jvFcaq7U1@mid.individual.net> <slrn3vfsl1156h.kbp.ike@iceland.freeshell.org>

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In article <slrn3vfsl1156h.kbp.ike@iceland.freeshell.org>,
Ike Naar  <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> wrote:
> On 2013-08-17, blmblm  myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <slrnl0nodm.2m9.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid>,
> > Jorgen Grahn  <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> >
> >> - pointers don't exist (except as NullPointerExceptions)
> >
> > Not in the C sense, but what do you think references are?  

If you hadn't been so aggressive in trimming out quoted material,
it would have been clearer that "references" in what I wrote are
*Java* references.

Your example below may well be relevant and interesting in C++,
but in Java there is no "address-of" operator, so it's not relevant
in that context.  (Perhaps you didn't intend for it to be.)

Then again, now that I think about it, the fact that there's no such
operator does mean that references are not the same as pointers.
My term for them is "cleaned-up pointers", meaning that -- in
the Java tradition -- some of the more, um, creative [1] things
one can do with the C pointers aren't possible in Java.  It *is*,
however, possible to do some [2] of the more useful things one can
do with pointers.  For the record, I don't consider this an unmixed
blessing, though IMO it has its merits.

[1] Such as pointer arithmetic.

[2] Not all, but some.  For example, one can build and operate on
linked data structures, though the syntax is a bit different, but
one cannot define true pass-by-reference functions.  (In the right
circles that statement would probably launch yet another iteration
of the debate about whether Java passes variables by value or by
reference.  Maybe we can avoid that here.)

It might be worth pointing out that in Java it's not possible to
make distinctions between things and pointers-to-things:  A variable
is a either primitive type (with no way to get its address) or a
reference type (which *is*, in sense, an address or pointer).  One
consequence is that people who come to C (or, presumably, to C++)
from Java have to learn about this distinction.  That's one of the
reasons I say schools that teach only Java are doing their students
a disservice.

> 
> A reference is not a pointer. Perhaps "alias" would be a
> better term.
> 
> Consider the equivalence of
> 
>   T x, &y = x;
> 
> and
> 
>   T y, &x = y;
> 
> In either case the result is an object of type T that has two names,
> x and y. Neither x nor y has type pointer-to-T.
> 
> Code that follows cannot tell which set of declarations was used.
> 
> Calling x "the pointee" and y "the pointer", or vice versa, would
> destroy the symmetry.
> 

-- 
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer:  I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

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Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-14 11:29 -0500
  Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-14 11:49 -0500
    Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-14 12:05 -0500
      Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-14 13:37 -0400
        Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-14 18:26 +0000
          Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-14 15:13 -0400
            Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2013-08-14 13:02 -0700
        Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-14 15:30 -0500
      Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-14 12:56 -0500
    Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-15 17:02 +0300
      Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2013-08-15 19:32 +0000
  Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelberger@nowhere.net> - 2013-08-14 16:55 +0000
  Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-14 17:16 +0000
    Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-14 12:20 -0500
      Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-14 18:33 +0000
        Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2013-08-14 19:59 +0000
          Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2013-08-17 20:43 +0000
            Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2013-08-18 09:33 +0000
              Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2013-08-18 21:16 +0000
    Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2013-08-14 20:06 +0000
  Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2013-08-14 19:35 +0200
    Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-14 15:34 -0500
  Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-14 13:42 -0400
  Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2013-08-14 10:54 -0700
    Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-14 15:38 -0500
  Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-08-15 05:45 +0100
  Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-15 14:56 -0500
    Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2013-08-15 20:29 +0000
      Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-08-15 13:42 -0700
      Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-15 20:05 -0500
        Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-16 02:17 +0000
          Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-16 00:15 -0500
            Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-16 19:48 +1200
              Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-16 11:55 -0500
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2013-08-17 20:48 +0000
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-18 22:32 -0500
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-19 15:40 +1200
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-19 11:45 -0500
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-19 12:56 -0500
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-19 14:16 -0500
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-19 16:43 -0500
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-20 11:12 -0500
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-22 16:12 +0300
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-20 11:49 +0300
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-20 04:52 -0500
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-22 14:46 +0300
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-22 11:02 -0500
                [OT] Javascript performance (was: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index) Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2013-08-20 11:47 +0200
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2013-08-19 13:50 -0700
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-19 17:11 -0400
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-20 12:05 +0300
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-19 22:06 +0000
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2013-08-20 11:56 +0200
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2013-08-21 03:41 -0700
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2013-08-19 02:05 -0700
                Re: [OT] Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2013-08-19 21:10 +1200
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-08-19 08:24 -0700
                Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-19 11:47 -0500
        Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-16 07:00 -0400
          Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2013-08-16 04:07 -0700
            Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-08-16 08:07 -0400
              Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-08-16 16:44 +0000
              Re: Java tops C as most popular language in developer index Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2013-08-16 11:51 -0500

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