Re: Whaddaya think?

From	Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Whaddaya think?
Date	2024-06-17 16:15 -0700
Organization	None to speak of
Message-ID	<87plsf17q1.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> (permalink)
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Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
> On 17.06.2024 08:20, Keith Thompson wrote:
>> Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
>>> On 16.06.2024 22:32, Keith Thompson wrote:
>>>> Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>> [...] K&R at
>>>>> least seems to say that 'void' can only be declared for the
>>>>> return type of functions that do not return anything.
>>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> No version of C has ever permitted "void main" except when an
>>>> implementation documents and permits it.  [...]
>>>
>>> I cannot comment on main() being handled differently than
>>> other C functions. I was just quoting my old copy of K&R.
>> 
>> First or second edition?
>
> It's a translation of a "(c) 1977 Prentice Hall" original, with
> no further edition mentioned, so it's probably the 1st edition?

K&R1, the first edition, was published in 1978.  K&R2, based on the
then-new ANSI C standard, was published in 1988.  The 1977 date is
odd, but you clearly have a translation of the first edition.

That book is of great historical interest, but it's *not* a good
source of information of C as it is now.  I don't even know where
to find a C compiler for modern systems that supports that version
of the language.  Even the second edition is out of date, but it's
a good start for learning modern C.

[...]

>> What's slightly weird about
>> it is that it can be defined in (at least) two different ways,
>> with or without argc and argv.
>
> Frankly, I have no idea about the details of evolution of the
> C language. The old K&R source I have I had considered a pain;
> it provoked more questions than giving answers. And since then
> C changed a lot. That's why I stay mostly conservative with C
> and if in doubt check things undogmatic just with my compiler.

You've mentioned several things you have no idea about.  Are you
interested in learning?

>> [...]
>> 
>>> If I want a defined exit status (which is what I usually
>>> want) I specify 'int main (...)' and provide an explicit
>>> return statement (or exit() call).
>> 
>> Why would you ever not want a defined exit status, given that it's
>> easier to have one than not to have one? 
>
> Aren't we agreeing here? (The only difference is that you are
> formulating in a negated form where I positively said the same.)

We're not agreeing unless you've changed your mind.

You implied that there are cases where you don't want a defined exit
status.  For me, there are no such cases.  I would have go out of my way
to avoid having a defined exit status, and if I used your method then
the behavior of my program, not just its exit status, would be
undefined.

>> (Since C99 an explicit
>> return or exit() is optional.)  I can't think of any reason *at all*
>> to use "void main" in C with a hosted implementation.  Can you?
>
> Well, to indicate that there's no status information or that
> it's irrelevant. E.g. as was the case in the test fragment I
> posted.

Again, that's not what "void main" means.  Unless the implementation
documents that it permits "void main" (Microsoft's C compiler is the
only one I know of that does so, and it's vague about the semantics),
"void main" makes exactly as much sense as "float main".

You can write "int main(void)" and omit the return statement.
You can write "int main(void)" and add "return 0;".  You can write
"int main(void)" and add "return rand();" if you really want to.

[...]

> Whatever current C standards - and I'm not sure what ancient
> 'cc' is on my system and to what standard it complies - say,

Perhaps you should find out what your ancient "cc" does.  What OS
are you on?  Does "cc --version", "cc -V", or "man cc" give you
any meaningful information?

> if I specify an 'int' return type I also want a 'return' (or
> exit()) - consider it as "code hygienics" - even if it's not
> necessary according to more recent standards.

That's fine.  A return statement or exit() call is unnecessary
in main() due to a special-case rule that was added in 1999 for
compatibility with C++.  I don't particularly like that rule myself.
I choose to omit the return statement in small programs, but if
you want to add the "return 0;", I have absolutely no objection.
(I used to do that myself.)  It even makes your code more portable
to old compilers that support C90.  (tcc claims to support C99,
but it has a bug in this area.)

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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Whaddaya think? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-06-15 15:36 -0400
  Re: Whaddaya think? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 22:33 +0100
  Re: Whaddaya think? Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-06-15 23:03 +0100
    Re: Whaddaya think? bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-16 00:22 +0100
      Re: Whaddaya think? Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-06-16 10:30 +0100
    Re: Whaddaya think? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-06-16 11:52 -0400
      Re: Whaddaya think? Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-06-17 00:17 +0100
        Re: Whaddaya think? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-06-17 08:49 -0400
  Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 15:22 -0700
    Re: Whaddaya think? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-06-16 12:20 -0400
      Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 13:54 -0700
      Re: Whaddaya think? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-06-16 22:41 -0400
        Re: Whaddaya think? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-16 22:45 -0700
        Re: Whaddaya think? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-06-17 07:39 +0000
          Re: Whaddaya think? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 01:22 -0700
          Re: Whaddaya think? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-06-17 09:50 -0400
            Re: Whaddaya think? Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2024-06-17 16:23 +0100
              Re: Whaddaya think? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-17 18:46 +0200
              Re: Whaddaya think? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-06-22 22:14 +0000
                Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 17:10 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2024-06-23 11:20 +0300
          Re: Whaddaya think? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-18 00:19 -0700
            Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 03:10 -0700
              Re: Whaddaya think? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-18 17:24 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 17:55 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2024-06-19 01:58 +0000
        Re: Whaddaya think? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-06-17 08:50 -0400
          Re: Whaddaya think? Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2024-06-17 15:41 +0100
            Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-18 08:12 +0200
              Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 03:07 -0700
      Re: Whaddaya think? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-06-17 00:30 -0400
  Re: Whaddaya think? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-16 01:56 +0300
    Re: Whaddaya think? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-16 03:26 +0000
      Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-16 05:41 +0200
        Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 21:17 -0700
          Re: Whaddaya think? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-16 04:41 +0000
          Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-16 06:44 +0200
            Re: Whaddaya think? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-06-16 11:09 -0400
              Re: Whaddaya think? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-16 17:56 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-06-16 18:14 +0100
                Re: Whaddaya think? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-17 14:44 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-06-17 09:52 -0400
        Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-16 06:51 +0200
          Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 22:21 -0700
            Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-16 07:41 +0200
              Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-15 22:49 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-16 11:29 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 16:04 +0100
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-16 17:13 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 13:32 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-17 07:41 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 23:20 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-17 09:16 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-06-17 09:38 -0400
                Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 16:17 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-18 07:09 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-06-18 03:25 -0400
                Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 02:57 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 16:15 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-18 08:02 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 19:07 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-19 09:50 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-19 13:13 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-06-17 02:21 -0400
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-17 09:22 +0200
              Re: Whaddaya think? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-16 11:11 +0300
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-16 11:07 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-16 12:38 +0300
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-16 12:03 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-16 14:31 +0300
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-16 17:37 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-17 00:45 +0300
              Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 17:06 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-16 22:40 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-17 07:52 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-06-17 09:45 -0400
                Re: Whaddaya think? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 13:16 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-06-17 17:07 -0400
                Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 15:48 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-06-17 22:48 +0000
                Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 15:44 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-06-18 15:00 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-18 06:57 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-18 00:25 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-06-17 02:38 -0400
                Re: Whaddaya think? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-06-18 17:01 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-17 07:48 +0200
                Re: Whaddaya think? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 23:29 -0700
                Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-17 09:35 +0200
        Re: Whaddaya think? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 08:19 +0100
        Re: Whaddaya think? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-06-16 10:44 +0300
          Re: Whaddaya think? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2024-06-16 11:13 +0200
    Re: Whaddaya think? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-06-16 11:03 -0400
  Re: Whaddaya think? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2024-06-16 15:52 +0000
    Re: Whaddaya think? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 17:17 +0100
    Re: Whaddaya think? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-06-18 08:06 +0000
    Re: Whaddaya think? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2024-06-25 17:37 +0000
      Re: Whaddaya think? DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2024-06-25 14:09 -0400
        Re: Whaddaya think? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2024-06-25 18:11 +0000

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