Re: A Famous Security Bug

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From	Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: A Famous Security Bug
Date	Fri, 22 Mar 2024 11:21:40 -0700
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Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> writes:
> On 2024-03-22, Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> writes:
>>> Since ISO C says that the semantic analysis has been done (that
>>> unit having gone through phase 7), we can take it for granted as a
>>> done-and-dusted property of that translation unit that it calls bar
>>> whenever its foo is invoked.
>>
>> We can take it for granted that the output performed by the printf call
>> will be performed, because output is observable behavior.  If the
>> external function bar is modified, the LTO step has to be redone.
>
> That's what undeniably has to be done in the LTO world. Nothing that
> is done brings that world into conformance, though.
>
>>>> Say I have a call to foo in main, and the definition of foo is in
>>>> another translation unit.  In the absence of LTO, the compiler will have
>>>> to generate a call to foo.  If LTO is able to determine that foo doesn't
>>>> do anything, it can remove the code for the function call, and the
>>>> resulting behavior of the linked program is unchanged.
>>>
>>> There always situations in which optimizations that have been forbidden
>>> don't cause a problem, and are even desirable.
>>>
>>> If you have LTO turned on, you might be programming in GNU C or Clang C
>>> or whatever, not standard C.
>>>
>>> Sometimes programs have the same interpretation in GNU C and standard
>>> C, or the same interpretation to someone who doesn't care about certain
>>> differences.
>>
>> Are you claiming that a function call is observable behavior?
>
> Yes. It is the observable behavior of an unlinked translation unit.

An unlinked translation unit has no observable behavior in the way that
term is defined by the standard.

> It can be observed by linking a harness to it, with a main() function
> and all else that is required to make it a complete program.
> 
> That harness becomes an instrument for observation.

And a "call" instruction in a program consisting of a single translation
unit can be observed in a variety of ways.  That doesn't make it
"observable behavior".

Are you using the phrase "observable behavior" in a sense other than
what's defined in N1570 5.1.2.3?

[...]

>> Are you saying that the "call" instruction generated for the function
>> call is *observable behavior*?
>
> Of course; it can be observed externally, without doing any reverse
> engineering on the translated unit.

Is the "call" instruction *observable behavior* as defined in 5.1.2.3?

[...]

>> In phase 8:
>>     All external object and function references are resolved. Library
>>     components are linked to satisfy external references to functions
>>     and objects not defined in the current translation. All such
>>     translator output is collected into a program image which contains
>>     information needed for execution in its execution environment.
>>
>> I don't see anything about required CPU instructions.
>
> I don't see anything about /removing/ instructions that have to be
> there according to the semantic analysis performed in order to
> translate those units from phases 1 - 7, and that can be confirmed
> to be present with a test harness.

The standard doesn't mention either adding or removing instructions.

Running a program under a test harness is effectively running a
different program.  Of course it can yield information about the
original program, but in effect you're linking the program with a
different set of libraries.

I can use a test harness to observe whether a program uses an add or inc
instruction to evaluate `i++` (assuming the CPU has both instructions).
The standard doesn't care how the increment happens, as long as the
result is correct.  It doesn't care *whether* the increment happens
unless the result affects the programs *observable behavior*.

What in the description of translation phases 7 and 8 makes
behavior-preserving optimizations valid in phase 7 and forbidden in
phase 8?  (Again, insert weasel words about unspecified behavior.)

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Medtronic
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-20 18:54 +0000
  Re: A Famous Security Bug scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-03-20 19:38 +0000
    Re: A Famous Security Bug Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-03-20 14:20 -0700
      Re: A Famous Security Bug Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-03-20 14:23 -0700
  Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-21 16:13 +0100
    Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-21 17:41 +0000
      Re: A Famous Security Bug "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-03-21 12:37 -0700
        Re: A Famous Security Bug scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-03-21 20:21 +0000
          Re: A Famous Security Bug "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-03-21 14:31 -0700
            Re: A Famous Security Bug scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-03-21 23:19 +0000
              Re: A Famous Security Bug "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-03-21 17:38 -0700
                Re: A Famous Security Bug "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-03-22 12:39 -0700
      Re: A Famous Security Bug Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-03-21 13:46 -0700
        Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-22 15:50 +0000
          Re: A Famous Security Bug Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-03-22 09:31 -0700
            Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-22 17:20 +0000
              Re: A Famous Security Bug James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-03-22 13:38 -0400
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-22 19:27 +0000
              Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-22 19:13 +0100
              Re: A Famous Security Bug Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-03-22 11:21 -0700
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-22 19:43 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-23 16:36 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-23 16:07 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-23 18:58 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-24 01:23 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-03-23 12:51 -0400
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-24 05:50 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-24 14:21 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-24 16:02 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-24 17:27 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-27 21:06 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-28 19:07 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-03-24 12:45 -0700
          Re: A Famous Security Bug James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-03-22 13:05 -0400
          Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-22 18:42 +0100
            Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-22 18:55 +0000
              Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-22 21:26 +0100
        Re: A Famous Security Bug James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-03-22 12:35 -0400
          Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-22 17:28 +0000
            Re: A Famous Security Bug James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-03-22 13:38 -0400
      Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-22 13:51 +0100
  Re: A Famous Security Bug Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc> - 2024-03-21 21:13 +0300
    Re: A Famous Security Bug Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-03-21 12:42 -0700
    Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-21 20:21 +0000
      Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-22 14:38 +0100
        Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-22 15:33 +0000
          Re: A Famous Security Bug James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-03-22 13:15 -0400
          Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-22 18:50 +0100
            Re: A Famous Security Bug Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-03-23 09:20 +0000
              Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-23 16:06 +0000
              Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-23 17:08 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-23 16:56 +0000
              Re: A Famous Security Bug Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-03-24 09:45 -0700
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-03-24 17:53 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-04-17 12:10 -0700
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-18 10:20 +0200
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-04-18 14:26 -0700
      Re: A Famous Security Bug Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2024-03-28 12:23 +0300
        Re: A Famous Security Bug scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-03-28 14:12 +0000
    Re: A Famous Security Bug Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-03-22 07:50 -0700
    Re: A Famous Security Bug James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-03-22 13:14 -0400
      Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-22 21:41 +0000
        Re: A Famous Security Bug Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-03-22 16:30 -0700
          Re: A Famous Security Bug Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2024-03-23 00:09 +0000
            Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-23 17:25 +0100
              Re: A Famous Security Bug scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-03-23 16:51 +0000
              Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-23 19:58 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-24 14:42 +0100
        Re: A Famous Security Bug James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-03-23 03:26 -0400
          Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-23 11:26 +0000
            Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-23 17:51 +0100
              Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-23 21:21 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-24 15:52 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-24 19:56 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-03-24 13:49 -0700
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-24 23:38 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-25 01:42 +0300
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-25 09:37 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2024-03-25 08:54 -0700
                Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-24 23:07 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-25 01:39 +0200
                Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-25 02:12 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-25 09:58 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2024-03-25 13:26 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-25 15:43 +0200
                Re: A Famous Security Bug scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-03-25 17:21 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-25 09:53 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-03-25 17:24 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-24 23:43 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-25 13:16 +0200
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-25 13:26 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-25 15:11 +0200
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-25 16:30 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-25 16:39 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-25 16:06 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-25 18:51 +0200
                Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-25 18:10 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-25 21:01 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-03-25 20:28 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-25 23:05 +0200
                Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-25 21:25 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-26 01:31 +0200
                Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-26 00:34 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-25 19:07 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-24 18:53 +0300
                Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-24 18:58 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-25 13:04 +0200
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-25 13:24 +0200
                Re: A Famous Security Bug David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-03-25 16:17 +0100
                Re: A Famous Security Bug James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-03-28 06:14 -0400
            Re: A Famous Security Bug Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2024-03-23 11:44 -0700
            Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-24 17:22 +0300
            Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-24 17:26 +0300
              Re: A Famous Security Bug bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2024-03-24 19:12 +0000
                Re: A Famous Security Bug Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-03-24 22:33 +0300
            Re: A Famous Security Bug James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-03-28 05:52 -0400

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