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Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined)

From Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.theory, comp.ai.philosophy, comp.ai.nat-lang, sci.lang.semantics
Subject Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined)
Date 2020-07-21 11:31 -0700
Organization None to speak of
Message-ID <87a6zsu3dj.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <ZumdneK9hJZMR4jCnZ2dnUU7-f3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87365mui5o.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <9PCdnZ43HJ8Qy4vCnZ2dnUU7-a2dnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lfjdtvrb.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <tNednZcZC6_ik4rCnZ2dnUU7-eHNnZ2d@giganews.com>

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
> On 7/20/2020 10:03 PM, Keith Thompson wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>> On 7/20/2020 1:59 PM, Keith Thompson wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>> On 7/20/2020 12:15 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>> On 2020-07-19 22:52, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> Here is the formalization of the sentence: "This sentence is a theorem"
>>>>>>> φ ↔ ⊢φ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That isn't a formalization of 'this sentence is a theorem'. It is a
>>>>>> statement about some other formula, φ, which you have not given an
>>>>>> interpretation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like the liar Paradox and Gödel's
>>>>>      We are therefore confronted with a proposition which asserts
>>>>>      its own unprovability.15
>>>>> The truth teller paradox has no interpretation. Its meaning is vacuous.
>>>>
>>>> Do you understand that
>>>>       φ ↔ ⊢φ
>>>> is *not* a formalization of "this sentence is a theorem?  That nothing
>>>> in that formula means "this sentence"?
>>>>
>>>> Yes or no, please.
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>
>>> φ ↔ ⊢φ
>>> φ is logically equivalent to its own provability.
>>
>> Response ignored.  Yes or no, please.
>
> You claimed: >>>That nothing in that formula means "this sentence"?<<>
> I proved that you are wrong. There is not yes or no to it.

Proving something requires more than just asserting it.

> Do you understand that house bricks are a kind of baby kitten?
> (yes or no).
>
> "Yes" you understand and agree, "no" you fail to understand.

Neither "yes" nor "no" *in the sense that you've insisted on
redefining those words* is accurate.  I understand and disagree.
Obviously.  If I ignore your redefinition of "yes" and "no", then
my answer would be "no", followed by a clarification (I do not
"understand" things that I believe to be false).

Note how I directly addressed the question that you asked.  Try it
some time.

>> If you respond to be above question starting with either "yes" or
>> "no" or "neither yes nor no would be an accurate answer" with some
>> attempt to explain why, I will consider replying.

So you claim that "φ ↔ ⊢φ" is a formulation of "This sentence is
a theorem".  In the English sentence "This sentence is a theorem",
the phrase "This sentence" presumably refers to the sentence itself.

In "φ ↔ ⊢φ", φ does not refer to the sentence itself,
but to some other sentence.  Let's name the sentence "φ ↔ ⊢φ" S.
Then S asserts that φ is logically equivalent to φ's own
provability.  S is not a statement about S.  If interpreted in
English, S would not include the phrase "this sentence"; rather it
might include the phrase "that sentence" to refer to φ.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips Healthcare
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-18 15:31 -0500
  Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-19 11:37 -0500
    Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-19 11:25 -0600
      Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-19 12:46 -0500
        Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-19 11:56 -0600
          Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-19 13:50 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-19 14:06 -0600
        Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-19 13:39 -0700
          Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-19 17:21 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-19 15:57 -0700
    Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-07-20 01:55 +0100
      Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-19 23:52 -0500
        Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-19 23:15 -0600
          Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-20 12:56 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-20 12:48 -0600
              Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2020-07-20 14:49 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-20 21:42 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-21 10:51 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-21 12:02 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-21 12:12 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-21 20:09 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-21 19:35 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-22 09:47 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-22 09:23 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-22 10:21 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-22 13:22 -0600
              Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-20 18:20 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-20 18:28 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-20 21:41 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-20 11:59 -0700
              Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-20 21:44 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-20 20:03 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-21 10:49 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-21 10:47 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-21 11:54 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-21 11:01 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-21 19:54 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-21 19:23 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-22 09:23 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-22 09:11 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-21 11:53 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-07-21 11:31 -0700
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-21 20:22 -0500
        Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-07-21 00:12 +0100
          Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Semantically Incorrect Defined) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-22 10:16 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Mendelson Satisfiability) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-24 11:48 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V31 (Mendelson Satisfiability) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-24 11:56 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-24 12:02 -0500
              Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-27 19:08 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-27 19:57 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-27 21:14 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-27 20:45 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-27 21:55 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-27 22:58 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-28 00:07 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-27 23:16 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-28 00:38 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-28 00:05 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-28 10:00 -0500
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2020-07-28 21:32 -0600
                Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-28 22:44 -0500
              Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-28 09:20 -0500
            Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-24 12:40 -0500
  Re: Simply defining Gödel Incompleteness and Tarski Undefinability away V33 (Mendelson Satisfiability) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2020-07-31 22:33 -0500

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