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Re: z/PDOS-generic

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From cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups alt.os.development
Subject Re: z/PDOS-generic
Date Tue, 11 Mar 2025 18:29:35 -0000 (UTC)
Organization PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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References <v7bbdt$2fj5a$1@dont-email.me> <87o6ybbeqw.fsf@example.com> <vqit96$1kh$1@reader1.panix.com> <vqpuko$3kgpd$1@paganini.bofh.team>
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Originator cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
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In article <vqpuko$3kgpd$1@paganini.bofh.team>,
Waldek Hebisch <antispam@fricas.org> wrote:
>Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
>> In article <87o6ybbeqw.fsf@example.com>,
>> Salvador Mirzo  <smirzo@example.com> wrote:
>>>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>>
>>>> "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>Sure - but why not make it available anyway?
>>>>
>>>> MS-DOS is, was, and always will be a toy.  It's not even
>>>> a real operating system.
>>>
>>>And why is that?  Is it mainly because it doesn't time-share the CPU?
>> 
>> It depends on your definition of an operating system, I suppose.
>> I like the definition Mothy Roscoe (ETH) used in his OSDI'21
>> keynote:
>> 
>> The operating system is that body of software that:
>> 1. Multiplexes the machine's hardware resources
>> 2. Abstracts the hardware platform
>> 3. Protects software princples from each other
>>    (using the hardare)
>
>This is oversimplified definition, any definition of similar
>length will be oversimplified.  But let us see how this
>works.

Mmm...not really.

>> It's hard to see how MS-DOS fits that definition in a meaningful
>> way.  Does it multiplex the machine's hardware resources?  Well,
>> no; not really.
>
>[snip]
>
>Also, you seem to ignore a file system.  For definition

Funny how in the very next paragraph you quoted, I was talking
about a filesystem.  ;-P

>above to make any sense multipling machine hardware
>resources must include mutiplexing (coordinating) access
>to external storage which is (part of) function of file system.
>
>>  While it does provide a primitive filesystem,
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(See note above)

>> and exposes some interface for memory management, it only lets
>> one program run at a time, and that program doesn't have to use
>> or honor DOS's filesystem or memory management stuff.  Further,
>> the system interface is inexorably tied to the hardware; it's
>> defined in terms of synchronous software traps and specific
>> register values.  System calls are numbered, not named.
>
>System calls are numbered in almost all operating systems.

You're talking about the ABI.

>[snip]
>> Finally, the last one is really the nail in the coffin: MS-DOS
>> makes absolutely no effort to protect the software principles
>> from each other, or even themselves; a user program can take
>> over and just never cede control back to DOS. 
>
>Well, DOS is close to best possible protection given the
>hardware.  In modern times hardware protection gained
>importance, but putting hardware protection as mandatory
>part of operating system definition distorts history
>quite a lot.

By the time the IBM PC came along, we'd had systems where the
OS was protected from errant programs for 20 years.  For example
look up the Manchester Atlas system.

>There is a lot of valid critique of DOS, but saying that it is
>not an OS is just silly game of words.  You can pile adjectives
>on OS, like "multitasking OS", "proteded OS" (or better
>"OS using hardware protection") and DOS will be outside such
>restricted classes of OS-es.  But is clearly an OS.

Well, except perhaps it is not.  At least not by a very
reasonable definition that's widely accepted in the field.

I really don't see why people are so upset about this; it's not
a huge deal.  DOS was ok for it's time and for what it enabled
on the original IBM PC; the hardware was very limited, and so it
wasn't nearly as capable as larger systems with "real" operating
systems.  Why is it a priori a bad thing to acknowledge that?

It sure seems like some people are getting worked up about a
very minor thing.

	- Dan C.

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Thread

z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-07-18 23:07 +0800
  Re: z/PDOS-generic Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2024-07-18 22:40 -0500
    Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-07-19 18:43 +0800
      Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-07-19 16:18 +0000
        Re: z/PDOS-generic BGB-Alt <bohannonindustriesllc@gmail.com> - 2024-07-19 17:12 -0500
          Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-07-19 23:21 +0000
            Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-07-19 23:31 +0000
            Re: z/PDOS-generic BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-07-20 01:30 -0500
            Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 07:51 -0700
              Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-07-22 15:22 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 09:07 -0700
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-07-22 17:37 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-07-22 18:07 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-07-22 19:38 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 11:18 -0700
              Re: z/PDOS-generic BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 14:16 -0500
                Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-07-22 20:14 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 18:03 -0500
                Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-07-22 23:58 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-07-22 23:06 -0500
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-21 04:31 +0800
                Re: z/PDOS-generic BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-08-28 02:28 -0500
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-28 16:54 +0800
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-28 16:58 +0800
                Re: z/PDOS-generic BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2024-08-28 18:03 -0500
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-29 11:14 +0800
                Re: z/PDOS-generic George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2024-08-30 06:49 -0400
                Re: z/PDOS-generic George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2024-08-30 10:27 -0400
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-31 10:21 +0800
                Re: z/PDOS-generic George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2024-08-31 15:30 -0400
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2024-09-03 14:27 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic wolfgang kern <nowhere@never.at> - 2024-08-30 13:29 +0200
          Re: z/PDOS-generic Waldek Hebisch <antispam@fricas.org> - 2024-09-03 23:38 +0000
            Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-09-06 07:46 +0800
              Re: z/PDOS-generic J. Curtis <unknown@protocol.invalid> - 2024-09-06 20:08 +0100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-09-07 08:12 +0800
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-01-22 17:34 +1100
        Re: z/PDOS-generic J. Curtis <unknown@protocol.invalid> - 2024-07-20 00:02 +0100
        Re: z/PDOS-generic Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-03-08 14:42 -0300
          Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-09 02:09 +0000
            Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-03-09 15:40 +0000
              Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 12:38 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-03-10 14:49 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 15:00 +0000
            Re: z/PDOS-generic Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-03-10 09:21 -0300
              Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 13:50 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-03-10 14:10 -0300
                Studying the system (was Re: z/PDOS-generic) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 18:29 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 05:38 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-03-10 19:07 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 19:09 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-03-10 13:00 -0700
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 20:20 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 07:59 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-03-10 15:11 -0700
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 23:11 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 10:51 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 08:37 -0700
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-11 17:28 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-12 05:40 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 12:41 -0700
                What is an operating system? (was Re: z/PDOS-generic) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-11 21:00 +0000
                Re: What is an operating system? (was Re: z/PDOS-generic) "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-12 17:30 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 09:04 -0700
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 08:29 +1100
            Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 05:06 +1100
              Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-03-10 19:01 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 08:04 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-11 08:47 +1100
            Re: z/PDOS-generic antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-03-11 18:15 +0000
              Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-11 18:29 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-12 05:52 +1100
                Re: z/PDOS-generic antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-03-11 23:05 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-11 23:48 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-03-12 02:23 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-12 02:34 +0000
                Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2025-03-12 18:41 +1100
      Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-07-19 09:35 -0700
        Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-21 04:20 +0800
          Re: z/PDOS-generic John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-08-21 09:51 -0700
            Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-22 13:24 +0800
      Re: z/PDOS-generic Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2024-07-19 19:46 -0500
        Re: z/PDOS-generic "Paul Edwards" <mutazilah@gmail.com> - 2024-08-21 04:18 +0800
    Re: z/PDOS-generic Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-03-08 14:41 -0300
      Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-09 01:58 +0000
        Re: z/PDOS-generic Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-03-10 09:31 -0300
          Re: z/PDOS-generic cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-03-10 14:28 +0000
          Re: z/PDOS-generic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-03-10 14:46 +0000

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