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A Modern "Hello World"

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  A Modern "Hello World" Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2025-12-05 13:58 +0000
    Re: A Modern "Hello World" Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2025-12-05 15:00 +0000
      Re: A Modern "Hello World" John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-12-05 08:08 -0800
        Re: A Modern "Hello World" John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-12-05 09:10 -0800
          Re: A Modern "Hello World" John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-12-05 09:37 -0800
            Re: A Modern "Hello World" Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-14 20:12 +0000
              Re: A Modern "Hello World" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-14 20:31 +0000
                Re: A Modern "Hello World" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-12-16 12:15 -0500
                  Re: A Modern "Hello World" John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-12-16 09:21 -0800
              Re: A Modern "Hello World" John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-12-15 08:21 -0800
                Re: A Modern "Hello World" Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 22:45 +0000
                  Re: A Modern "Hello World" John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-12-15 14:53 -0800
                    Re: A Modern "Hello World" Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-15 23:06 +0000
                  Re: A Modern "Hello World" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-16 07:49 +0000
                    Re: A Modern "Hello World" David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2025-12-16 15:05 +0000
                      Re: A Modern "Hello World" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-16 19:46 +0000
          Re: A Modern "Hello World" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-12-05 18:49 +0000
            Re: A Modern "Hello World" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-05 22:51 +0000
          Re: A Modern "Hello World" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-05 19:10 +0000
        Re: A Modern "Hello World" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-05 19:09 +0000
        Re: A Modern "Hello World" Anthk NM <anthk@disroot.org> - 2025-12-21 21:38 +0000
          Re: A Modern "Hello World" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-22 06:53 +0000
            Re: A Modern "Hello World" Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-12-22 17:33 +0000
              Re: A Modern "Hello World" Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-12-22 13:52 -0700
                Re: A Modern "Hello World" Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-22 21:12 +0000
                  Re: A Modern "Hello World" Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-23 11:09 +0000
            Re: A Modern "Hello World" Anthk NM <anthk@disroot.org> - 2025-12-30 18:03 +0000
      Re: A Modern "Hello World" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-05 19:04 +0000
        Re: A Modern "Hello World" Anthk NM <anthk@disroot.org> - 2025-12-21 21:38 +0000
      Re: A Modern "Hello World" Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2025-12-06 23:40 -0400
        Re: A Modern "Hello World" "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-12-07 10:55 +0000
          Re: A Modern "Hello World" Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-12-07 23:27 +0000
            Re: A Modern "Hello World" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-08 01:38 +0000
      Re: A Modern "Hello World" Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-14 20:14 +0000
    Re: A Modern "Hello World" David Bridgham <dab@froghouse.org> - 2025-12-05 14:55 -0500
    Re: A Modern "Hello World" Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-12-06 12:02 +0000
    Re: A Modern "Hello World" Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-14 02:09 +0000
    Re: A Modern "Hello World" Anthk NM <anthk@disroot.org> - 2025-12-21 21:38 +0000

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#232758

On 2025-12-05, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2025 15:00:45 -0000 (UTC)
> Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote:
>
>> I still do not know how to write a program that can do the above, and
>> I have no idea how to get started; I do not even know which would be
>> the simplest language/framework to do it in.
>
> The problem is that once you go beyond basic command-line environments,
> the answer to the question is almost *entirely* dependent on the OS
> and/or GUI framework; even in the same language, it's different in
> Win32 than it is in OSX, several whole *flavors* of different on *nix
> depending on whether you're using Qt, GTK, Motif, raw X11 calls, or any
> of half-a-dozen other minor toolkits, etc. etc.
>
> And where it's *not* different, it's because the language offers an
> abstraction that tries to gloss over the differences for you - as in
> Java, and to a lesser extent Python. Which is not necessarily a bad
> thing, but does mean that you're limited by the design choices of the
> abstraction, which tends to be a least-common-denominator that never
> quite fits in with *any* of the native environments it's targeting.
>
>> Just a couple decades ago, such a program would be written in a few
>> lines of Visual Basic, but I don't think that exists any more.
>
> Sadly, no (although there are attempts to revive it; would-be spiritual
> successors as well, but only GAMBAS even shows a true understanding of
> what made it great.) For many a year it was the absolute simplest way
> to go from zero to functional GUI application - however, it never did
> run on any platform besides Windows (unless you count the original v.1
> VB-for-DOS, which *did* exist but I don't think I've ever seen an
> application built with it.)
>

Tk has native themes for OSX and Win32. Once you set a simple if to 
detect the OS, you'll set a different ttk theme. Problem nearly solved.
It will look a bit rusty and old, but it will be functional.

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#232762

On Sun, 21 Dec 2025 21:38:50 -0000 (UTC), Anthk NM wrote:

> Tk has native themes for OSX and Win32. Once you set a simple if to
> detect the OS, you'll set a different ttk theme. Problem nearly solved.
> It will look a bit rusty and old, but it will be functional.

There is the problem. Users don't want to revisit the '90s. Our legacy 
product used Motif. The complaints were not that the product didn't work 
but it looked 'old'.

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#232769

On 2025-12-22, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Dec 2025 21:38:50 -0000 (UTC), Anthk NM wrote:
>
>> Tk has native themes for OSX and Win32. Once you set a simple if to
>> detect the OS, you'll set a different ttk theme. Problem nearly solved.
>> It will look a bit rusty and old, but it will be functional.
>
> There is the problem. Users don't want to revisit the '90s. Our legacy 
> product used Motif. The complaints were not that the product didn't work 
> but it looked 'old'.

And Everybody Knows that it's more important to look new than to work.  Feh.

In a society obsessed with constant change,
optimum solutions must be quickly broken or discarded.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Growth for the sake of
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  growth is the ideology
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  of the cancer cell.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Edward Abbey

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#232772

On 12/22/25 10:33, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2025-12-22, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, 21 Dec 2025 21:38:50 -0000 (UTC), Anthk NM wrote:
>>
>>> Tk has native themes for OSX and Win32. Once you set a simple if to
>>> detect the OS, you'll set a different ttk theme. Problem nearly solved.
>>> It will look a bit rusty and old, but it will be functional.
>>
>> There is the problem. Users don't want to revisit the '90s. Our legacy
>> product used Motif. The complaints were not that the product didn't work
>> but it looked 'old'.
> 
> And Everybody Knows that it's more important to look new than to work.  Feh.
> 
> In a society obsessed with constant change,
> optimum solutions must be quickly broken or discarded.

I like Motif. I try to stick to the old standards, not go with the 
latest fad.

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#232773

On Mon, 22 Dec 2025 13:52:10 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> I like Motif. I try to stick to the old standards, not go with the
> latest fad.

Motif pioneered the multiple-desktops paradigm, that became popular on
so many *nix desktop environments decades before Microsoft and Apple
figured out how to copy it.

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#232781

On 2025-12-22, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Dec 2025 13:52:10 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> I like Motif. I try to stick to the old standards, not go with the
>> latest fad.
>
> Motif pioneered the multiple-desktops paradigm, that became popular on
> so many *nix desktop environments decades before Microsoft and Apple
> figured out how to copy it.

This somehow sounds like a sentence where it could be fitting to use
"xerox" instead of "copy" :-P

-- 
Nuno Silva

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#232904

On 2025-12-22, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Dec 2025 21:38:50 -0000 (UTC), Anthk NM wrote:
>
>> Tk has native themes for OSX and Win32. Once you set a simple if to
>> detect the OS, you'll set a different ttk theme. Problem nearly solved.
>> It will look a bit rusty and old, but it will be functional.
>
> There is the problem. Users don't want to revisit the '90s. Our legacy 
> product used Motif. The complaints were not that the product didn't work 
> but it looked 'old'.
>

The TTK theme can trivially set to a Win32 or GTK3/OSX theme.

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#232383

On Fri, 5 Dec 2025 15:00:45 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:

> I, for one, am badly in need of such a starter kit. After 45 years of
> programming, I still do not know how to write a program that can do the
> above, and I have no idea how to get started; I do not even know which
> would be the simplest language/framework to do it in.

Once you get into GUIs you need to pick a toolkit and that's where it gets 
dicey. I've worked with Motif for the past 25 years but that's not a good 
choice for the future as the Linux world moves away from x11 and it never 
was a good choice for Windows without an X server.

WinForms and WPF have similar cross platform limitations as do Gtk and Qt. 
Tk isn't the most appealing but it might do, particularly with the Python 
bindings. Pyside6 is another Python choice.

A web approach might be better but then you're back into many competing 
frameworks. 

https://www.pythonguis.com/tutorials/pyside6-creating-your-first-window/

That's typical for a 'hello world' involving GUIs but you've already 
chosen a language and toolkit.

https://www.pythonguis.com/tutorials/create-gui-tkinter/

Same thing, but using the TK binding.

There are plenty of examples in different languages and toolkits but they 
all assume you've made some basic decisions.

https://www.tutorialspoint.com/wpf/wpf_hello_world.htm

Different language, different framework. 

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#232757

On 2025-12-05, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2025 15:00:45 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:
>
>> I, for one, am badly in need of such a starter kit. After 45 years of
>> programming, I still do not know how to write a program that can do the
>> above, and I have no idea how to get started; I do not even know which
>> would be the simplest language/framework to do it in.
>
> Once you get into GUIs you need to pick a toolkit and that's where it gets 
> dicey. I've worked with Motif for the past 25 years but that's not a good 
> choice for the future as the Linux world moves away from x11 and it never 
> was a good choice for Windows without an X server.
>
> WinForms and WPF have similar cross platform limitations as do Gtk and Qt. 
> Tk isn't the most appealing but it might do, particularly with the Python 
> bindings. Pyside6 is another Python choice.
>
> A web approach might be better but then you're back into many competing 
> frameworks. 
>
> https://www.pythonguis.com/tutorials/pyside6-creating-your-first-window/
>
> That's typical for a 'hello world' involving GUIs but you've already 
> chosen a language and toolkit.
>
> https://www.pythonguis.com/tutorials/create-gui-tkinter/
>
> Same thing, but using the TK binding.
>
> There are plenty of examples in different languages and toolkits but they 
> all assume you've made some basic decisions.
>
> https://www.tutorialspoint.com/wpf/wpf_hello_world.htm
>
> Different language, different framework. 

TCL/Tk. There's Iron TCL which works even under Windows XP. Add tcllib and tklib
 plus sqlite3 and you'll cover a huge case usage. It has nearly everything.
For audio/notifications, you can get Snack for TCL and call i it done.

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#232404

Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> writes:

> And so, we now have one or two generations of programmers that have
> learned a "framework" that loads a gigabyte of runtime to do a simple
> task. No wonder we have bloated and buggy programs at junior programmers
> mix and match frameworks.
> 
> Just a couple decades ago, such a program would be written in a few
> lines of Visual Basic, but I don't think that exists any more.

Ronald Reagan is reputed to have said something like, "The most fearsome
words ever heard are, 'We're from the government and we're here to
help you.'"

Updated to today, the most fearsome words are:

    We are continuing to make improvements to this website to serve
    you better.

Interactive web sites that worked flawlessly have been, I assume,
subjected to the attention of (not neccessairily junior) js progammers
tasked with instantiating features that someone thought would be cool,
that some executive demanded or simply something of which the programmer
said to h{im,er}self, "Jeez, that would be better if....Oh, I can do
that!"  And the site stops working unless I upgrade or change my
browser or even, possibly, upgrade ny whole system.

Feh.




> 
> -- 
> Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#232408

On 06 Dec 2025 23:40:56 -0400
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

> 
> Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> writes:
> 
> > And so, we now have one or two generations of programmers that have
> > learned a "framework" that loads a gigabyte of runtime to do a simple
> > task. No wonder we have bloated and buggy programs at junior programmers
> > mix and match frameworks.
> > 
> > Just a couple decades ago, such a program would be written in a few
> > lines of Visual Basic, but I don't think that exists any more.
> 
> Ronald Reagan is reputed to have said something like, "The most fearsome
> words ever heard are, 'We're from the government and we're here to
> help you.'"
> 
> Updated to today, the most fearsome words are:
> 
>     We are continuing to make improvements to this website to serve
>     you better.
> 
> Interactive web sites that worked flawlessly have been, I assume,
> subjected to the attention of (not neccessairily junior) js progammers
> tasked with instantiating features that someone thought would be cool,
> that some executive demanded or simply something of which the programmer
> said to h{im,er}self, "Jeez, that would be better if....Oh, I can do
> that!"  And the site stops working unless I upgrade or change my
> browser or even, possibly, upgrade ny whole system.
> 
> Feh.
> 
> 
Where do we lobby to Stop This Sort of Thing?

-- 
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

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#232432

On 2025-12-07, Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> On 06 Dec 2025 23:40:56 -0400
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> writes:
>> 
>>> And so, we now have one or two generations of programmers that have
>>> learned a "framework" that loads a gigabyte of runtime to do a simple
>>> task. No wonder we have bloated and buggy programs at junior programmers
>>> mix and match frameworks.
>>> 
>>> Just a couple decades ago, such a program would be written in a few
>>> lines of Visual Basic, but I don't think that exists any more.
>> 
>> Ronald Reagan is reputed to have said something like, "The most fearsome
>> words ever heard are, 'We're from the government and we're here to
>> help you.'"
>> 
>> Updated to today, the most fearsome words are:
>> 
>>     We are continuing to make improvements to this website to serve
>>     you better.
>> 
>> Interactive web sites that worked flawlessly have been, I assume,
>> subjected to the attention of (not neccessairily junior) js progammers
>> tasked with instantiating features that someone thought would be cool,
>> that some executive demanded or simply something of which the programmer
>> said to h{im,er}self, "Jeez, that would be better if....Oh, I can do
>> that!"  And the site stops working unless I upgrade or change my
>> browser or even, possibly, upgrade ny whole system.
>> 
>> Feh.
> 
> Where do we lobby to Stop This Sort of Thing?

Well, you could try the politicians.  But make sure you have
deep pockets; you'll be competing with some Very Rich People
who are quite content with the status quo and will defend it
to the death.

Alternatively, you could go to the general public and offer them
something more usable and reliable than what they're getting now.
But if it isn't shiny enough, they'll consider it boring and ignore
it.  (To make it shiny enough, you'll have to become part of the
problem.)

In the meantime, hold your nose and find something that doesn't
stink too badly.  If possible, add some hacks of your own to
make it work more acceptably.  And enjoy it in the comfort of
your own home, because it's not likely to catch on elsewhere.

[doom pixie mike drop]

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Growth for the sake of
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  growth is the ideology
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  of the cancer cell.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Edward Abbey

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#232434

On Sun, 07 Dec 2025 23:27:39 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> Alternatively, you could go to the general public and offer them
> something more usable and reliable than what they're getting now. But if
> it isn't shiny enough, they'll consider it boring and ignore it.  (To
> make it shiny enough, you'll have to become part of the problem.)

The 'convert your W10 machine ot Linux Mint' program isn't catching fire. 

https://www.repaircafe.org/en/new-starter-kit-for-your-own-linux-repair-
cafe/

"Our colleague Rieneke Post reports: “After Martine Postma talked about 
this on national radio, the trial sessions were packed."

We don't have access to NPR or even Montana PBS and posts on the library's 
website or in reddit/facebook, just don't get the job done. We talked 
about approaching BestBuy, Staples, and so forth to see if people are 
dropping their old laptops in the recycling bins so we could install Linux 
and pass them to non-profits. That depends on whether people recycle the 
laptops or stick them in the trash or a closet as well as the level of 
enthusiasm for retread Linux boxes in the non-profit world. 

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#232539

On Fri, 5 Dec 2025 15:00:45 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:

> The best I personally could do is probably a HTML page calling up a
> Perl script on the server side with a refresh tag.

Do it in JavaScript directly in the web browser.

For a more elaborate example, see the analog clocks on my home page
<https://geek-central.gen.nz/>. These are drawn using the 2D Canvas
API (based on Cairo graphics). Don’t be afraid to view the page
source: I like to keep my code cleanly formatted.

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#232386

Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> writes:

> The traditional "Hello World" program is sometimes a nice example line
> of code to illustrate the flavor/style of a programming language,

My take on "Hello World" was that it had nothing to do with illustrating
the flavor/style of a language.  Its purpose was to see that you could
operate the development chain.  That is that you could edit a program,
compile it, and then run the resulting output.  "Hello world" is about
the simplest program that shows that.  In the embedded world, blinky
serves the same purpose.

Once that was in place, then you could move on learning the
language and libraries and whatever else was on the syllabus.

Dave

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#232392

Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote:
> The traditional "Hello World" program is sometimes a nice example line
> of code to illustrate the flavor/style of a programming language, but it
> kind of overlooks that very little programming these days runs in a
> command line/text terminal environment. To be relevant in today's world,
> we need the next level of program, maybe something like ...
> 
> Draw a text box that displays a live-updating digital clock: The current
> time in hh:mm:ss format, about 10 mm high. Extra bonus points for
> scaling it when the text box is resized.
> 
> A collection of these in various languages would be quite useful.
> How much would depend on the environment (Windows, MacOS, GNOME)?
> 
> I suspect that the shortest would be HTML/CSS/JavaScript (assuming the
> availability of a web browser).
> 
> Does such a collection already exist?

Anything suitable in here?
https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Programming_Tasks

Theo

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#232531

On Fri, 5 Dec 2025 13:58:18 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:

> The traditional "Hello World" program is sometimes a nice example line
> of code to illustrate the flavor/style of a programming language, but it
> kind of overlooks that very little programming these days runs in a
> command line/text terminal environment.

Au contraire. Doing plain-text output is actually a stress test of GUI-
centric platforms that make it quite hard to access any kind of command 
line. It really separates those platforms that tie the GUI inextricably 
into the OS kernel, from those that don’t.

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#232756

On 2025-12-05, Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote:
> The traditional "Hello World" program is sometimes a nice example line
> of code to illustrate the flavor/style of a programming language, but it
> kind of overlooks that very little programming these days runs in a
> command line/text terminal environment. To be relevant in today's world,
> we need the next level of program, maybe something like ...
>
> Draw a text box that displays a live-updating digital clock: The current
> time in hh:mm:ss format, about 10 mm high. Extra bonus points for
> scaling it when the text box is resized.
>
> A collection of these in various languages would be quite useful.
> How much would depend on the environment (Windows, MacOS, GNOME)?
>
> I suspect that the shortest would be HTML/CSS/JavaScript (assuming the
> availability of a web browser).
>
> Does such a collection already exist?

trivial under TCL/Tk, with even less code than HTML+JS

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