Re: The joy of FORTH (not)

From	Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Newsgroups	alt.folklore.computers, comp.os.linux.misc
Subject	Re: The joy of FORTH (not)
Date	2024-10-25 22:59 -1000
Organization	Wheeler&Wheeler
Message-ID	<875xpf8cjz.fsf@localhost> (permalink)
References	(16 earlier) <1951595391.751507009.101971.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> <vfesg3$2s7ud$1@dont-email.me> <mddiktfc290.fsf@panix5.panix.com> <vfh6nu$3brp2$8@dont-email.me> <on_SO.297936$EEm7.179553@fx16.iad>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On a PPOE's system it took 40 minutes to assemble a 2000-card source
> code deck.  When I got my own assembler working, it met one of my
> design goals of being twice as fast - so it only took 20 minutes to
> assemble the same program.  For us programmers, who had rock-bottom
> priority on the machine, that meant I only had to beg for half as much
> machine time.

I took 2credit hr intro to fortran/computers and at end of semester I
was hired to rewrite 1401 MPIO in assembler for IBM 360/30. The univ was
getting 360/67 for tss/360 replacing 709 (tape->tape) and 1401 (unit
record front end) and got 360/30 temporarily (replacing 1401) pending
availability of 360/67. univ. shutdown datacenter on weekends and I got
the whole place dedicated (although 48hrs w/o sleep made monday classes
hard). I was given a bunch of hardware and software manuals and got to
design and implement my own monitor, device drivers, interrupt handlers,
error recovery, storage management, etc ... and within a few weeks had a
2000 card assembler program.

I then used conditional assembler option to implement 2nd version with
os/360 sysstem services (get/put, dcb macros, etc). The stand-alone
version took 30mins to assemble, the OS/360 version took 60mins to
assemble (each DCB macro taking 5-6mins). Later I was told that the
IBMers implementing the assembler had been told that they only had
256bytes for instruction lookup (and DCB macro had an enormous number of
2311 disk I/Os).

Within a year, the 360/67 shows up (replacing 709 & 360/30) but tss/360
never came to production fruition so ran as 360/65 with os/360 ... and I
was hired fulltime responsible for os/360 (keeping my dedicated weekend
time). Originally student fortran ran under a second on 709, but
initially over a minute on 360/67 with os/360. My first sysgen was R9.5
and I add HASP and it cuts student fortran in half. Then with R11
sysgen, I start redoing stage2 to carefully place datasets and PDS
members to optimize arm seek and multi-track search, cutting another
2/3rds to 12.9secs, Student fortran never got better than 709 until I
install Univ. of Waterloo WATFOR.

Along the way, CSC comes out to install (virtual machine) CP/67 (3rd
installation after CSC itself and MIT Lincoln Labs) and i mostly got to
play with it during my weekend dedicated time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Scientific_Center
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP-67

Initially i rewrote lots of CP67 to optimize running os/360 in virtual
machine. My os/360 test stream ran 322secs on real hardware and
initially ran 856secs in virtual machine (534secs CP67 CPU), within a
few months I have CP67 CPU down to 113secs and I'm invited to the Spring
Houston IBM mainframe user group meeeting to participate in CP67
announcement.

Then before I graduate, I'm hired fulltime into a small group in the
Boeing CFO office to help with the consolidation of all dataprocessing
into independent business unit. I though that Renton datacenter was
possibly largest in the world, a couple hundred million in IBM 360
stuff, 360/65s were arriving faster than they could be installed, boxes
constantly being staged in the hallways around the machine room. Also a
lot of politics betweeen Renton director and CFO who only had a 360/30
up at Boeing field for payroll (although they enlarge the room to
install a 360/67 for me to play with when I wasn't doing other stuff).

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Thread

Re: The joy of FORTRAN "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-20 00:13 -0400
  Re: The joy of FORTH p.dean@invalid.net (Peter Dean) - 2024-10-20 06:22 +0000
    Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-20 07:03 +0000
      Re: The joy of FORTH (not) p.dean@invalid.net (Peter Dean) - 2024-10-20 07:31 +0000
    Re: The joy of FORTH Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-10-20 19:00 +0000
      Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-20 21:37 +0000
        Re: The joy of FORTH (not) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-21 01:33 +0000
          Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-21 03:30 +0000
            Re: The joy of FORTH (not) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-21 06:51 +0000
              Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-21 08:41 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-10-21 07:55 -0700
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-21 20:53 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-10-21 15:16 -0700
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-21 23:12 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-22 00:29 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-22 01:11 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-22 04:43 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-22 04:46 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-10-22 09:59 -0700
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-22 20:52 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-10-22 14:48 -0700
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-22 22:23 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-10-22 15:36 -0700
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) magardner2010 <magardner2010@gmail.com> - 2024-10-23 14:33 +0300
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-23 21:00 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) magardner2010 <magardner2010@gmail.com> - 2024-10-24 06:45 +0300
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-24 03:54 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-24 02:03 -0400
                Re: The joy of Ada Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-24 06:36 +0000
                Re: The joy of Ada "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-24 03:11 -0400
                Re: The joy of Ada Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-24 20:50 +0000
                Re: The joy of Ada "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-24 21:23 -0400
                Re: The joy of Ada Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-10-25 17:32 +0000
                Re: The joy of Ada rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-25 19:46 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-25 22:41 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-25 21:58 -0400
                Re: The joy of SQL Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-26 02:40 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-26 06:02 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL p.dean@invalid.net (Peter Dean) - 2024-10-26 16:35 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL p.dean@invalid.net (Peter Dean) - 2024-10-26 16:52 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-26 05:53 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-26 07:18 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-10-28 08:04 -0700
                Re: The joy of SQL Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-10-28 11:33 -0400
                Re: The joy of SQL "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2024-10-28 17:59 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-10-28 14:14 -0400
                Re: The joy of SQL Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-28 21:24 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2024-10-29 01:11 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-29 05:21 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-29 02:10 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-10-26 11:07 +0100
                Re: The joy of SQL Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2024-10-26 16:44 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2024-10-26 18:48 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-10-27 09:52 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL Mister Johnson <root@example.net> - 2024-10-27 13:00 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-10-27 13:30 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-27 17:40 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2024-10-27 18:38 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-10-28 02:42 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-10-27 09:32 +0000
                Re: The joy of SQL rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-27 17:35 +0000
                Re: The joy of Ada Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-10-26 04:38 +0000
                Re: The joy of Ada Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-26 05:39 +0000
                Re: The joy of Ada The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-10-26 11:08 +0100
                Re: The joy of Ada Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-10-26 18:01 +0000
                Re: The joy of Linux Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-26 20:26 +0000
                Re: The joy of Ada "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-25 21:40 -0400
                Re: The joy of Ada Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-10-26 04:38 +0000
                Re: The joy of Ada rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-26 06:27 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) moi <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2024-10-24 14:52 +0100
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-10-24 14:46 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) magardner2010 <magardner2010@gmail.com> - 2024-10-25 19:55 +0300
                Re: The joy of strong typing magardner2010 <magardner2010@gmail.com> - 2024-10-24 10:56 +0300
                Re: The joy of Python Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-24 20:55 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-24 17:13 -0700
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-25 03:24 -0400
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-22 16:07 -0700
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-22 23:37 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-10-23 08:04 -0700
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-23 20:57 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-10-23 14:36 -0700
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-23 23:02 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-24 17:13 -0700
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-25 01:32 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-25 01:50 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-10-25 17:32 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2024-10-25 17:16 -0400
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-25 22:39 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-25 18:48 -0700
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-10-26 04:38 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2024-10-25 22:59 -1000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2024-10-26 09:10 -1000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2024-10-26 12:35 -1000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-25 18:48 -0700
                Re: Little old machines, The joy of FORTH (not) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2024-10-26 02:18 +0000
                Re: Little old machines, The joy of FORTH (not) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-26 13:25 -0700
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2024-10-26 02:12 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2024-10-25 18:48 -0700
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-26 06:11 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-10-26 11:05 +0100
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2024-10-25 11:01 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2024-10-24 00:10 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-24 00:44 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-24 00:55 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-24 03:53 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-24 04:50 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-21 22:50 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2024-10-23 22:25 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-24 00:46 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-10-23 22:13 -0400
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-24 03:55 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-24 05:07 +0000
                Re: The joy of FORTH (not) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-10-24 08:03 -0700
                Re: The joy of Stick-shifts Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2024-10-24 23:04 +0000
                Re: The joy of Stick-shifts Thomas Prufer <prufer.public@mnet-online.de.invalid> - 2024-10-25 08:37 +0200
                Re: The joy of Stick-shifts Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-10-25 07:07 -0400
                Re: The joy of Stick-shifts David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2024-10-25 13:14 +0100
                Re: The joy of Stick-shifts Thomas Prufer <prufer.public@mnet-online.de.invalid> - 2024-10-25 15:58 +0200
                Re: The joy of Stick-shifts David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2024-10-25 15:41 +0100
                Re: The joy of Stick-shifts scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-10-25 14:02 +0000
          Re: The joy of FORTH (not) p.dean@invalid.net (Peter Dean) - 2024-10-21 03:59 +0000
          Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2024-10-24 21:46 +0000
            Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-10-24 22:29 +0000
              Re: The joy of FORTH (not) Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2024-10-27 20:30 +0000
            Re: The joy of FORTH (not) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-10-25 00:00 +0000
              Re: The joy of FORTH (not) "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2024-10-25 17:41 +0100
            Re: The joy of FORTH (not) "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2024-10-25 17:40 +0100
  Re: The joy of FORTRAN John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-10-21 08:03 -0700

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