Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)

References	(8 earlier) <7413a8e7-b580-4b2f-84bc-dd13da2d36ba@googlegroups.com> <5533eb85$0$12992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <16d59891-6e28-4256-870a-903bb75aa953@googlegroups.com> <mailman.3.1429496666.31470.python-list@python.org> <a745d401-190d-4e7b-bc90-85f7e2cd6504@googlegroups.com>
Date	2015-04-20 13:03 +1000
Subject	Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.5.1429499040.31470.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> The key thing to make this work is that the tab needs to be a reasonably solid
> non-leaky abstraction for denoting an indent.
> As soon as you allow both tabs and spaces all the interminable bikeshedding starts
>

Whatever you change, there will be stuff for people to argue about.
Trust me, that's nothing to do with the nature of programming
languages... it's about the nature of people.

> In many ways this is like the browser wars.
> If browsers had been made like half-decent compilers then non-compliant html
> wouldn't render and would get corrected on short order.
> Instead browsers overreach themselves to be nice (to users) and end up being
> horrible to web-developers who now need to maintain 1 dozen browsers × 2 dozen versions.
>
> Likewise all the overreaching to be allow 'free-form' layout puts paid to all
> attempts at richer structure comprehending tools.
> As a quick example try this:
> You've a 10-file python project in which you want to replace function 'f'
> by function 'longname'
> How easy is it?
>
> I am ready to bet that if you use IE-ish its easy if you use classic editors
> not so.

If you have a ten-file project that's identifying a key function
globally as 'f', then you already have a problem. If your names are
more useful and informative, a global search-and-replace will do the
job.

What's your point, though? Somewhere along the way, you need to have
identifiers, and those identifiers need to explain *to the human* what
code you're referring to. Whether they're line labels in assembly
language, memory locations in machine code, linker relocation table
entries, fully-qualified module/class/method names, or simple flat
identifiers, they exist as much for the humans as for the compiler. If
you change the basic syscall from INT 21 to CALL __SYSTEM, everyone
who uses your code needs to change his/her *head* to cope with your
change. There is fundamentally no tool which can do this for you.

You can add a level of indirection to program loading by having the
function name turn into some sort of internal identifier when you save
the source file, and then you can rename the function in one place.
Great! But somehow you still need to have humans recognize which
functions they want to call. Do they have to point-and-click to pick a
function? I've used IDEs like that, and they are a pain.

ChrisA

Thread

New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Blake McBride <blake1024@gmail.com> - 2015-04-15 21:07 -0700
  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-15 21:48 -0700
  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 14:51 +1000
  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-16 15:49 +1000
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-15 23:11 -0700
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2015-04-16 09:00 -0400
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-16 11:51 +0100
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-17 03:10 +1000
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-04-16 12:49 -0500
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-16 22:04 +0100
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-17 11:37 +0200
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 22:14 +0300
  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-04-16 07:46 +0000
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-16 10:47 +0200
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 19:34 +1000
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-16 12:09 +0200
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-16 20:43 +1000
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-16 13:07 +0200
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-04-16 13:18 +0000
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-16 14:44 +0100
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-16 18:46 +0100
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-04-16 18:03 +0000
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 23:50 +1000
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-16 16:09 +0200
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-04-16 18:04 +0000
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 23:41 +1000
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-16 15:57 +0200
  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-16 13:17 +0100
  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-16 14:48 +0200
  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Simmo <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 14:37 +0100
  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Blake McBride <blake1024@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 07:52 -0700
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Blake McBride <blake1024@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 08:01 -0700
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-04-16 18:08 +0000
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) memilanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 11:28 -0700
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-04-16 15:05 +0000
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) edmondo.giovannozzi@gmail.com - 2015-04-20 03:00 -0700
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) memilanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 08:05 -0700
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-16 16:05 +0100
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) CHIN Dihedral <dihedral88888@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 11:46 -0700
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 01:03 +1000
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-04-16 15:21 +0000
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-17 03:41 +1000
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Ron Adam <ron3200@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 14:54 -0400
    EditorConfig for cross-editor consistent code style (was: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-04-17 06:10 +1000
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 09:44 -0600
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-04-17 16:28 +0000
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-17 18:05 +0100
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 10:13 -0700
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-04-17 11:13 -0700
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-17 23:28 +0300
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-18 07:10 +1000
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2015-04-18 01:18 +0000
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 19:22 -0700
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-19 12:44 +0100
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-19 23:23 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-04-19 07:22 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 07:01 -0700
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 20:14 -0600
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-18 09:53 +0300
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-04-18 12:22 +1000
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-17 22:28 -0700
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-18 10:00 +0300
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-18 00:13 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-18 10:42 +0300
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 11:15 -0600
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-19 23:41 +0300
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 19:00 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-20 12:54 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 13:05 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-20 08:09 +0300
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-19 12:38 +0100
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-04-19 22:59 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-19 22:42 +0100
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Ron Adam <ron3200@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 19:28 -0400
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-04-20 09:59 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-20 01:30 +0100
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-04-19 09:18 -0400
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-19 23:22 +1000
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-19 14:30 +0100
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 01:15 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 09:03 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2015-04-19 17:38 +0000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-20 03:53 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2015-04-19 18:25 +0000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 19:08 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 12:24 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 19:43 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 13:03 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 20:28 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 13:44 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 19:18 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-20 20:30 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 04:51 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-25 17:42 +0000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-20 13:05 +0100
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-04-24 01:50 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-20 03:38 +0100
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-04-21 08:29 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-21 10:49 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-04-21 14:35 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-21 20:11 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-04-21 21:05 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-22 04:37 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-22 13:05 +0100
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-04-20 20:38 +1200
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-20 20:15 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2015-04-19 18:07 +0000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 06:03 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 18:46 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-20 12:42 +1000
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-20 03:46 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-19 13:36 -0700
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-24 22:06 -0700
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-25 10:27 +0300
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-25 09:52 -0700
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-24 08:31 +0100
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-04-24 08:03 -0600
  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 10:59 -0700
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2015-04-16 18:45 +0000

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